[Greenbuilding] Visible Flames (Fireplaces) in Tight Houses

[Frank Tettemer]

I'm not sure if my description has validity, after reading Norbert's .

Rant, rant rant: Norbert's description trumps Frank's.

Frank Tettemer
Living Sol ~ Building and Design
www.livingsol.com
613 756 3884


On 03/12/2014 3:02 PM, Norbert Senf wrote:
> In an insulated wall, the temperature in the middle is halfway between 
> the temperature on the inside and on the outside.
> If you put insulation between an insulated chimney and a cavity wall 
> (insulated or not), you have no way of predicting in perpetuity how 
> thick the insulation in the wall will be. If the wall gets a retrofit 
> with say 12" of insulation, and the chimney has 1", then the 
> temperature 3" from the hot face will be 80% towards the hot face, and 
> will ignite your wall.
>
> If there is a 2" air space, convection allows heat to be transferred 
> away from any hot spots in the chimney. If you have even just one 
> really hot spot, the insulation will not allow the convection to happen.
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Clarke Olsen <colsen at fairpoint.net 
> <mailto:colsen at fairpoint.net>> wrote:
>
>     What is the reason for not insulating that space? Why would
>     vermiculite be a better conductor than air?
>     Does this apply to metal and masonry chimneys?
>     Clarke Olsen
>     clarkeolsendesign.com <http://clarkeolsendesign.com>
>     373 route 203
>     Spencertown, NY 12165
>     USA
>     518-392-4640 <tel:518-392-4640>
>     colsen at taconic.net <mailto:colsen at taconic.net>
>
>
>
>
>     On Dec 3, 2014, at 11:14 AM, Norbert Senf <norbert.senf at gmail.com
>     <mailto:norbert.senf at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>>     Under no circumstances should anything be put into the 2" air
>>     space that is specified around a UL/ULC listed factory chimney.
>>
>>     If you put vermiculite in there, you are voiding the UL listing
>>     of the chimney by virtue of not installing according to
>>     "manufacturers instructions". This creates liability for you.
>>
>>     This is a common misconception, and is the reason for the  "attic
>>     radiation shield" required in attics, which are required to have
>>     a storm collar on them, specifically to prevent people from
>>     putting insulation into the 2" air space. Here in Canada, a
>>     radiation shield is also required around chimneys in chases,
>>     specifically to avoid this scenario.
>>
>>     This is not an issue in normal use. However, the ULC-621 listing
>>     means the chimney system (including the air space) has been
>>     tested to survive three 30 minute chimney fires at 2100F, without
>>     torching the adjacent walls. Put vermiculite into the air space,
>>     and the wall will burn. I have seen photos of where this has
>>     happened.
>>
>>     Norbert
>>
>>     On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:43 AM,
>>     <conservationarchitect at rockbridge.net
>>     <mailto:conservationarchitect at rockbridge.net>> wrote:
>>
>>         Alan
>>         How tight were the openings into this closed loop fireplace?
>>         This may be acceptable to my client. .6ach at 50pa
>>         <mailto:.6ach at 50pa>is impressive with these handicaps. What
>>         would your recommendation for interior cloths dryer be?
>>         As an alternative to the insulated chase, could you define a
>>         space up to a triple wall chimney that has the specified
>>         clearance to combustible material filled with non combustible
>>         insulation such as vermiculite.
>>         Thanks
>>         Eli
>>
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>
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>
>
> -- 
> Norbert Senf
> Masonry Stove Builders
> 25 Brouse Road, RR 5
> Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0
> 819.647.5092
> www.heatkit.com <http://www.heatkit.com>
>
>
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