[Greenbuilding] Visible Flames (Fireplaces) in Tight Houses
Frank Tettemer
frank at livingsol.com
Wed Dec 3 14:16:44 CST 2014
I'm not sure if my description has validity, after reading Norbert's .
Rant, rant rant: Norbert's description trumps Frank's.
Frank Tettemer
Living Sol ~ Building and Design
www.livingsol.com
613 756 3884
On 03/12/2014 3:02 PM, Norbert Senf wrote:
> In an insulated wall, the temperature in the middle is halfway between
> the temperature on the inside and on the outside.
> If you put insulation between an insulated chimney and a cavity wall
> (insulated or not), you have no way of predicting in perpetuity how
> thick the insulation in the wall will be. If the wall gets a retrofit
> with say 12" of insulation, and the chimney has 1", then the
> temperature 3" from the hot face will be 80% towards the hot face, and
> will ignite your wall.
>
> If there is a 2" air space, convection allows heat to be transferred
> away from any hot spots in the chimney. If you have even just one
> really hot spot, the insulation will not allow the convection to happen.
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Clarke Olsen <colsen at fairpoint.net
> <mailto:colsen at fairpoint.net>> wrote:
>
> What is the reason for not insulating that space? Why would
> vermiculite be a better conductor than air?
> Does this apply to metal and masonry chimneys?
> Clarke Olsen
> clarkeolsendesign.com <http://clarkeolsendesign.com>
> 373 route 203
> Spencertown, NY 12165
> USA
> 518-392-4640 <tel:518-392-4640>
> colsen at taconic.net <mailto:colsen at taconic.net>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 3, 2014, at 11:14 AM, Norbert Senf <norbert.senf at gmail.com
> <mailto:norbert.senf at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Under no circumstances should anything be put into the 2" air
>> space that is specified around a UL/ULC listed factory chimney.
>>
>> If you put vermiculite in there, you are voiding the UL listing
>> of the chimney by virtue of not installing according to
>> "manufacturers instructions". This creates liability for you.
>>
>> This is a common misconception, and is the reason for the "attic
>> radiation shield" required in attics, which are required to have
>> a storm collar on them, specifically to prevent people from
>> putting insulation into the 2" air space. Here in Canada, a
>> radiation shield is also required around chimneys in chases,
>> specifically to avoid this scenario.
>>
>> This is not an issue in normal use. However, the ULC-621 listing
>> means the chimney system (including the air space) has been
>> tested to survive three 30 minute chimney fires at 2100F, without
>> torching the adjacent walls. Put vermiculite into the air space,
>> and the wall will burn. I have seen photos of where this has
>> happened.
>>
>> Norbert
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:43 AM,
>> <conservationarchitect at rockbridge.net
>> <mailto:conservationarchitect at rockbridge.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Alan
>> How tight were the openings into this closed loop fireplace?
>> This may be acceptable to my client. .6ach at 50pa
>> <mailto:.6ach at 50pa>is impressive with these handicaps. What
>> would your recommendation for interior cloths dryer be?
>> As an alternative to the insulated chase, could you define a
>> space up to a triple wall chimney that has the specified
>> clearance to combustible material filled with non combustible
>> insulation such as vermiculite.
>> Thanks
>> Eli
>>
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>
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> --
> Norbert Senf
> Masonry Stove Builders
> 25 Brouse Road, RR 5
> Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0
> 819.647.5092
> www.heatkit.com <http://www.heatkit.com>
>
>
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