[Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)

Fri Dec 12 06:55:56 CST 2014

"Polystyrene is a petroleum-based plastic made from the styrene monomer"
In other words, small molecules of styrene base stock are strung together
to form large chain molecules of polystyrene. The 0.1% of styrene in the
finished product is likely unpolymerized leftovers. Otherwise, what is the
rest of the 67 lbs per bundle composed of ?  ...................N

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:38 PM, John Salmen <terrain at shaw.ca> wrote:

> Actually it is something to be considered.
>
>
>
> The EPS product I use is manufactured from polystyrene beads which combine
> styrene (0.1% by weight of finished product) and pentane (1% by weight of
> finished product). These beads representing 1.1% of the final product are
> manufactured in Alberta (about 1000 km from me). They are shipped to
> Vancouver (about 130 km from me) where they are manufactured into board
> stock using steam (local water and heat) and packaged into roughly 96
> cu.ft. polyethylene wrapped bundles (88 sq.ft. of 2ml poly).
>
>
>
> Each bundle weighs about 67 lbs with .067 lbs (about 1 ounce) of styrene
> monomer and would insulate 64 sq. ft. of wall to roughly R40.  20 bundles
> could do the walls of a 1600 sq.ft. house – about 20 oz of styrene
> (equivalent to 10 milk jugs when they were made of styrene)
>
>
>
> So basically I had about 6.7 lbs of polystyrene beads shipped 1000km then
> converted into 67 lbs of finished insulation wrapped in 88 sq.ft of poly (
> and shipped 130km where it gets put into buildings and hopefully
> subsequently taken out in board form and put into other buildings or
> whatever things get recycled into in the future – probably milk jugs).
>
>
>
> I’m not sure I can do better than that at this point with less impact for
> a local solution that works well in my climate –
>
>
>
> Straw would have to be shipped an equivalent distance (we have no local
> wheat) – ironically it would take about 20 bales (about 900 lbs) to
> insulate an equivalent area which takes about a ½ acre of farmland to grow
> and about .1 lb (1.6oz) of petroleum derived fertilizer to generate the
> growth.  Straw does not work in my climate.
>
>
>
> For cellulose the equivalent wall area or insulated area would be about
> 200 lbs of shredded newspaper – so I could collect and shred papers locally
> but I would still have to ship in 60 lbs or so of borates to make up that
> amount at at least 4  times the distance. Also we are getting more
> information that borates might not be as safe as we thought – not a well
> investigated material. Also I have spent a lot of time politically working
> on having newspaper recycled as pulp mills are a huge environmental
> liability in my region as is deforestation.
>
>
>
> For rockwool for walls the equivalent wall area would be about 162 lb and
> I would have to ship that about 3000 km (so double the weight and 3 times
> the distance – and 4 times the packaging). If I wanted to use a rockwool as
> a board material comparable to the eps for slabs the equivalent area weight
> would be about 800lbs (additional weight being formaldehyde binder for
> density).
>
>
>
> So it is a complex decision making process. All design decisions are.  Is
> 1oz of styrene as dangerous as 60 lbs of borate salt, chlorine pollution
> and tree loss, or potentially 600 lbs of formaldehyde glue,  or even the
> soil loss and petro fertilizer usage from something as green as strawbales.
> I don’t know and getting information to know a little more is a continuous
> process -  but am certainly not at this point going to accept simple
> arguments for simple materials having discovered long ago there is no such
> thing as a simple material. Some of the most ‘natural’ materials out there
> are still the most toxic and/or inappropriate.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> \
>
> *From:* Greenbuilding [mailto:
> greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On Behalf Of *Gennaro
> Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn
> *Sent:* December-11-14 8:56 AM
>
> *To:* Green Building
> *Subject:* Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on
> roof (ErgoDesk)
>
>
>
> John: " In my case a foam brand is about 60 miles away "
>
>
>
> I doubt that. If it is like most products on this planet, it's ingredients
> span across all continents: soy from Nebraska, ingredient A from China,
> Ingredient B from the Philippines, canisters from Mexicon etc.
>
>
>
> This the argument for simple building materials. Less ingredients, less
> travel. Cob: hay and mud from next door. Now that's green.
>
>
> Gennaro Brooks-Church
> Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.
> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
> www.EcoBrooklyn.com
> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, John Salmen <terrain at shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> So if diverting energy from the food stream and the deforestation that
> results is unacceptable in the case of soy foams – why is diverting energy
> from the paper stream and subsequent deforestation of NA acceptable?  The
> question is density and the amount of a virgin material used to get a
> result – and then the question becomes appropriate virgin material.  I
> don’t like bringing food material into the building or waste stream but it
> may be better than producing synthetic material – I don’t know?.
>
>
>
> All insulations are simple – a material that is made to encapsulate air. .
> Cellulose or fibre material is odd because we are harvesting, processing
> and transporting a coarse material that either naturally encapsulates air
> or is made to do so rather than simply introducing air into a material in a
> geographically more local context – and most foams are produced close to
> the regions where they are marketed. In my case a foam brand is about 60
> miles away whereas mineral wood is about 3000 miles.
>
>
>
> Again not a defense of foam just trying to make sense of the discussion.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greenbuilding [mailto:
> greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On Behalf Of *Alan Abrams
> *Sent:* December-11-14 3:37 AM
> *To:* Green Building
> *Subject:* Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on
> roof (ErgoDesk)
>
>
>
> and that 5% that is soy has the carbon of the fertilizer and fuel it took
> to grow, harvest, transport, and process it. I would not doubt that is a
> greater EE factor than pure plastic.
>
>
>
> not to mention, the diversion from feedstock. IOW's, how many more acres
> of Amazon forests does it take, to grow feedstock for raising cattle,
> because of the soy that was used for manufacturing insulation?
>
> put another way, could you eat your insulation if you got hungry enough?
>
>
>
> AA
>
>
> Alan Abrams
>
> *certified professional building designer, AIBDcertified passive house
> consultant, PHIUS*
>
>
> *certified passive house builder, PHIUS*cell     202-437-8583
> alan at abramsdesignbuild.com
> HELICON WORKS *Achitecture and Education*
> <http://www.heliconworks.com/index2.html>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:02 PM, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <
> info at ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> They tell me it's made from soybeans and pop bottles so it must be good.
> Ross Elliott
>
>
>
> A whopping 5% of the foam is soy. The other 95% is just like any two part
> foam. Last time I checked.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> --
> Gennaro Brooks-Church
> Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.
> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
> www.EcoBrooklyn.com
> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231
>
>
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-- 
Norbert Senf
Masonry Stove Builders
25 Brouse Road, RR 5
Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0
819.647.5092
www.heatkit.com
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