[Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)

Fri Dec 12 21:13:08 CST 2014

Ergo you don't sell anything but you have a twitter account @styrohome? I'm
very skeptical.

Gennaro Brooks-Church
Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.
Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
www.EcoBrooklyn.com
22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 3:39 PM, ErgoDesk <ergodesk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry about everyone getting confusing info about EPS Composites, that get
> all EPS covered with Thin-Shell Polymerized Concrete. The EPS will always
> be embedded in this concrete shell, you can also place your radioactive
> items in there for safety:-)
>
> Because we all know that EPS lasts "forever," the biggest problem is
> finding a strong concrete mix that will last as long. If mixed in the
> mortar as small fibers or a woven mesh will make a super strong GFRC mixes
> that will stick to the EPS very well. Some builders are trying to us the
> extruded XPS on foundations, but concrete will not stick to it.
> http://basalt-mesh.com/
>
> Roxul is made in western Canada at it's Grand Forks plant not Maple Ridge,
>
>    1. Roxul Inc
>    Address: 6526 Industrial Pk Way, Grand Forks, BC V0H 1H0, Canada
>    2. Phone:+1 250-442-5253
>
>
> I do not sell any product, Styrofoam or EPS, just inspiration smart
> people can build on. follow me on.
>
> Follow me on Twitter @styrohome
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
> http://about.me/StyroHome
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:22 AM, John Straube <jfstraube at uwaterloo.ca>
> wrote:
>>
>> I apologize if the "tone" was offensive.  Wild is an adjective that I
>> leave up to others to decide. But just re-read my post and remove wildly.
>>
>> The errors are numerically out by a factor of early 100 in the case of
>> EPS styrene content and perhaps 5-10 times in the case of glue in rock wool.
>>
>> Your information about rock wool and how they get density is wrong.  You
>> said the majority of the increase in rock wool density is glue, whereas 95%
>> or more of the increase in density is glue.  That is a massive difference
>> when we talk about going from 2 pcf batt to 8 pcf roofing board.  You can
>> easily and simply look this up on the MSDS sheet for any stone wool product
>> or better yet visit the local plant. I will not muddy the waters in this
>> post about how and why products resist heat flow.
>>
>> If I subtract the density of air from the EPS, 95% or more of EPS foam is
>> made of polystyrene.  I am sorry I was not clear. It is NOT 1.1%
>> polystyrene.  Of the solid matter almost 100% is polystyrene and fire
>> retardants.  That is a massive difference.
>>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:59 AM, John Salmen <terrain at shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi John
>> > Wildly wrong?
>> >
>> > My original information on the roxul board came from a phone
>> conversation
>> > with their technical department so I don't know John - they are a bit
>> cagey
>> > on the formaldehyde content but that is what is used and if the rock
>> density
>> > increases the insulation value drops (more rock fibre less air?? - or
>> am I
>> > missing something - are these special rocks being used?. I've used the
>> board
>> > - its nasty, dusty, easy to crush and deform under foot. I do like
>> using the
>> > batt product in projects as an alternative to glass. I did not know
>> they had
>> > mining in BC but your right the downstream operation is in grand forks
>> (523
>> > km) so about 4x the distance for a finished product though it is a
>> > downstream operation from the various mines so there would be more
>> transport
>> > of heavy byproduct to grand forks.
>> >
>> > The 1.1% is the polystyrene beads so I'm not sure what the difference
>> is you
>> > are talking about as yes it contains the pentane which has a weight but
>> then
>> > is expanded dispersed and replaced with the air - the monomer content is
>> > given as .1% by ALL manuf. - yes stuff varies in manuf. but since the
>> > monomer represents a cost I doubt manuf. vary it intentionally - not
>> like
>> > adding more butter to make it better type of thing. Materials need
>> > ingredients - the work is to find products with the fewest ingredients!
>> I
>> > don't understand your comment that a board is 95% monomer that is
>> misleading
>> > unless monomer is a new word for 'air' - it is air and yes I know what
>> steam
>> > is - difficult thing to contain in a product?
>> >
>> > I think you get the point of the comments I was making and I don't see
>> wild
>> > inaccuracies but I certainly do feel belittled by the tone of the
>> response.
>> > Yes monomers are not as stable as was thought or is advertised. Styrene
>> is
>> > mutagenic so are many wood fibres and dust, pigments, chlorines,
>> perfumes,
>> > etc. We have to realize that most of what we synthesize is also
>> 'naturally'
>> > occurring - the built environment is as I said a toxic environment and
>> the
>> > toxicity increases as compounds concentrate  and merge to form other
>> > compounds. You think that cellulose insulation is free of the dioxins
>> from
>> > the bleaching process? Or tampons and toilet paper?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Greenbuilding [mailto:
>> greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]
>> > On Behalf Of John Straube
>> > Sent: December-12-14 5:18 AM
>> > To: Green Building
>> > Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on
>> roof
>> > (ErgoDesk)
>> >
>> > I think the supply chain issue Alan and John are discussing is very
>> valid
>> > and does indeed show how complex it is to make the "best" decision But
>> John,
>> > you have some facts wildly wrong. That about 1 pound of EPS can do 1 sq
>> ft
>> > to R40 is correct although most people us Canadian Type 2, which is a
>> higher
>> > density and R4 per inch. A rounding error.
>> >
>> > But that high density stone wool is made by adding glue is not true. A 2
>> > pound per cubic foot batt is definitely 95% or more stone, and the
>> higher
>> > density products like 4 pcf wall insulation or 8 pcf roof insulation
>> have
>> > MUCH more stone and may have a lower % of glue.  You could go to
>> factory
>> > and watch the stream of fibers on the conveyor belt being squished to
>> > different densities. The primary difference IS the amount of fibers in
>> the
>> > product.
>> > Also, you have a Roxul stone wool plant in Maple Ridge BC  - which is
>> not
>> > 3000 km from where you are, it is very likely closer than the styrene
>> plant
>> > in Alberta.  It is true that the amount of rock wool you have to ship
>> for
>> > R40 is a LOT more, more than double (e.g., 3.3 pounds per square foot
>> if you
>> > did it all exterior, I would use 2 pcf batt in the cavity to roughly
>> get the
>> > first R20 and then 5" of pcf on the exterior for the next R20, so lets
>> say
>> > 2.6 pounds per square foot versus 1 pounds per square foot)
>> >
>> > The claim that 0.067 pounds of styrene makes 67 pounds of EPS is also
>> > incorrect. Norbert is correct. It is true that a 1 pound sample of EPS
>> may
>> > contain only 0.1% of styrene monomer: this is one of the concerns with
>> > styrofoam to some (not me) because the monomer can move and potentially
>> have
>> > health effects. It is often higher than 0.1% which is the problem.  But
>> the
>> > remainder of that sample is polystyrene, the polymer. Pentane is mostly
>> > removed at the factor during expansion and moulding, and replaced with
>> air
>> > which weighs about 0.075 pounds per cubic foot. So of the 1.2 pcf for
>> EPS,
>> > 1.1+ is polystyrene.  To make polystyrene you react the styrene monomer
>> to
>> > polymerize it.  So a pound of EPS in typical foam board is over 95% from
>> > styrene monomer.  Not 1%. The steam is used to expand the beads and mold
>> > them, it is not part of the chemical reaction and does not become part
>> of
>> > the product.
>> >
>> > How to compare the impact of 1 pound of styrene produced 1000 km away
>> and
>> > 2.6 pounds of stone melted 400 km away and 3.5 pounds of cellulose with
>> > 0.5pound of borate?  I dont know.  This is tough.  Except for Ergo who
>> knows
>> > the answer before the analysis begins: EPS is always best.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>> > On Dec 11, 2014, at 11:38 PM, John Salmen <terrain at shaw.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Actually it is something to be considered.
>> >>
>> >> The EPS product I use is manufactured from polystyrene beads which
>> combine
>> > styrene (0.1% by weight of finished product) and pentane (1% by weight
>> of
>> > finished product). These beads representing 1.1% of the final product
>> are
>> > manufactured in Alberta (about 1000 km from me). They are shipped to
>> > Vancouver (about 130 km from me) where they are manufactured into board
>> > stock using steam (local water and heat) and packaged into roughly 96
>> cu.ft.
>> > polyethylene wrapped bundles (88 sq.ft. of 2ml poly).
>> >>
>> >> Each bundle weighs about 67 lbs with .067 lbs (about 1 ounce) of
>> >> styrene monomer and would insulate 64 sq. ft. of wall to roughly R40.
>> >> 20 bundles could do the walls of a 1600 sq.ft. house - about 20 oz of
>> >> styrene (equivalent to 10 milk jugs when they were made of styrene)
>> >>
>> >> So basically I had about 6.7 lbs of polystyrene beads shipped 1000km
>> then
>> > converted into 67 lbs of finished insulation wrapped in 88 sq.ft of
>> poly (
>> > and shipped 130km where it gets put into buildings and hopefully
>> > subsequently taken out in board form and put into other buildings or
>> > whatever things get recycled into in the future - probably milk jugs).
>> >>
>> >> I'm not sure I can do better than that at this point with less impact
>> >> for a local solution that works well in my climate -
>> >>
>> >> Straw would have to be shipped an equivalent distance (we have no local
>> > wheat) - ironically it would take about 20 bales (about 900 lbs) to
>> insulate
>> > an equivalent area which takes about a 1/2 acre of farmland to grow and
>> about
>> > .1 lb (1.6oz) of petroleum derived fertilizer to generate the growth.
>> Straw
>> > does not work in my climate.
>> >>
>> >> For cellulose the equivalent wall area or insulated area would be about
>> > 200 lbs of shredded newspaper - so I could collect and shred papers
>> locally
>> > but I would still have to ship in 60 lbs or so of borates to make up
>> that
>> > amount at at least 4  times the distance. Also we are getting more
>> > information that borates might not be as safe as we thought - not a well
>> > investigated material. Also I have spent a lot of time politically
>> working
>> > on having newspaper recycled as pulp mills are a huge environmental
>> > liability in my region as is deforestation.
>> >>
>> >> For rockwool for walls the equivalent wall area would be about 162 lb
>> and
>> > I would have to ship that about 3000 km (so double the weight and 3
>> times
>> > the distance - and 4 times the packaging). If I wanted to use a
>> rockwool as
>> > a board material comparable to the eps for slabs the equivalent area
>> weight
>> > would be about 800lbs (additional weight being formaldehyde binder for
>> > density).
>> >>
>> >> So it is a complex decision making process. All design decisions are.
>> Is
>> > 1oz of styrene as dangerous as 60 lbs of borate salt, chlorine
>> pollution and
>> > tree loss, or potentially 600 lbs of formaldehyde glue,  or even the
>> soil
>> > loss and petro fertilizer usage from something as green as strawbales. I
>> > don't know and getting information to know a little more is a continuous
>> > process -  but am certainly not at this point going to accept simple
>> > arguments for simple materials having discovered long ago there is no
>> such
>> > thing as a simple material. Some of the most 'natural' materials out
>> there
>> > are still the most toxic and/or inappropriate.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > John F Straube
>> > jfstraube at uwaterloo.ca
>> > www.JohnStraube.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
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>>
>> John F Straube
>> jfstraube at uwaterloo.ca
>> www.JohnStraube.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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