[Greenbuilding] Conversation/Listserv Format

Tue Dec 13 15:30:34 CST 2016

Thanks for the conversation. 

I wrote Rob Tom "off listserv" and sent some screen shots, as I am pretty sure I can’t do that here.  Our format is more visual and does not rely on emails (but can send emails and weekly summaries when there are posts, it’s up to the individual user) But I did note and do note I don’t have a role in running this list - don’t want to take credit that belongs to others!  I also am really open to feedback, ad I have a great web development team now, so it’s a good time to share a "list of demands” or just some regular old feedback.  :)

Reuben - format is up to you, participants.  People can stay together as you can create, name, and form groups as you like.

John - But people don’t delete, I can’t follow sometimes when I really try, and yes, others aren’t seeing this priceless info.  (and Hi!)  Even trying to cut the extra repeats out of this conversation so I could reply and have one chain was fairly pesty.  

I believe in getting as much green building information as we can to as many people as we can, and to helping as many people and organizations connect.  I’d love to help you all also meet new and more people.  I can’t do that with a listserv- as I can’t share a link on social media and show people your wisdom.  They don’t have to “be” in your group, but they could still see what you’re sharing.

If one or a few people want to set up a group and see how it feels and try a post or two, that might be a good way to try.  You can see what you like and don’t and people can see what it is you created for them to join, or not.  You’re right John that this listserv is also a treasure.  But Reuben’s right and I sense it too that people are using it a lot less.  And it’s pretty darned messy. And the info can help more people - and not be hard to read.  I don’t know if this would take off or not, and I worry not everyone would move, but the format would be easier to read, that I know.  And I could help point more people to the content.  The way I see it, you don’t actually lose if you’re the active people here if you stay, in theory.  Some people are posting sometimes, and a few others do answer so helpfully.  The friendship is sincere.  But others lose not reading what you have to say, and you do lose when posts are less frequent and are impossible to follow, and there are people out there you could enjoy getting to know and help you and learn from you who you aren’t meeting.  I also think you are losing members by staying in the same format, when the world is moving differently.  I couldn’t even follow the kind replies to my own post easily.  Which is frustrating when this is what I have been working to resolve so we can have more access to information and more green building knowledge shared.  I want to see more posts, not fewer. 

Thanks,
Allison

> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 14:26:01 -0500
> From: John Beeson <emailme0617 at yahoo.com>
> To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: Conversation/Listserv Format
> Message-ID: <ECB26E66-E98B-4C23-AFE4-3B3395D8ED86 at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Hey Allison!
> 
> I?d say the list works great and is kept direct and concise when folks remember to delete as much of the previous thread as possible (without deleted reference/history content that may be useful to the stream of thought).
> 
> I will go check out the ?rateitgreen.com? groups, but you are right, not many people see the conversations outside of the group.
> 
> -John
> 
> ———————————————

> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 21:55:03 -0500
> From: RT <ArchiLogic at yahoo.ca>
> To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org, "Allison Friedman"
> 	<afriedman at rateitgreen.com>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Conversation/Listserv Format
> Message-ID: <op.ysd2drjh4f5a3n at user-pc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed";
> 	DelSp="yes"
> 
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 15:50:04 -0500, Allison Friedman  
> <afriedman at rateitgreen.com> wrote:
> [big <snip>]
> 
> Thanks Allison for doing the thankless chore that you do, facilitating  
> these lists.
> 
> Just a ran-dumb thought:
> 
> How difficult would it be to combine all of the discussion lists into one  
> and have it operate in a similar fashion to Facebook ?
> 
> As you've noted, the traffic on most of the groups has diminished to the  
> point of being non-existent on some and I can't help but think that part  
> of the reason is the email format .
> 
> Whereas in the Olde Days of the lists during the previous millennium when  
> CREST was the sponsor, subscribers didn't seem to mind receiving 30 or  
> more messages per day from each of the CREST discussion groups to which  
> they were subscribed  (and it wasn't unusual for someone to be subscribed  
> to multiple CREST-run lists ) ... and some great discussion threads ensued  
> .
> 
> Back then,  people somehow managed to find the time to compose thoughtful,  
> informative, fact-filled messages with word counts running into the  
> thousands.
> 
>  ie I remember a thread where Marc Rosenbaum was telling us about the  
> debate he had (at an engineers convention (ASES ?) in Florida )with one of  
> the principals of the Scandinavian architectural firm  Gaia Lista who were  
> big proponents of the notion of air/vapour-open "breathing" envelopes and  
> Marc had the Guy from Gaia conceding that the facts didn't support the  
> theory.
> 
> Today in 2016,  rarely if ever, would anyone take the time to do that  
> anymore.
> 
> It's not that people don't want to talk in 2016 . I just think that they  
> don't want to do it via single-topic email listservers anymore.
> 
> If RateItGreen were to set up something like Facebook where  
> multi-disciplinary discussions could be carried out at a website (if  
> that's what a Facebook page is ... I'm thinking of something like the  
> Facebook pages that newspapers run where there might be dozens of  
> different stories on any given day ) and people could quickly scan through  
> the topics and select ones that they want to expand and perhaps  
> participate in,  that format may see more participation than what's  
> happening on lists like this one these days.
> 
> And perhaps that format would allow selective advertising in the sidebars  
> to help with finances. ie I wouldn't have a problem looking at advertising  
> from companies that provide Green products and services so long as those  
> companies were carefully screened so as to minimise the opportunities for  
> Greenwashers.
> 
> 
> PS: I've copied Allison directly on this message just in case the  
> listserver software does what it seems to have been doing to all of my  
> messages lately, sending out a null message with  the original as a file  
> attachment .
> 
> 
> -- 
> === * ===
> Rob Tom T6015O
> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
> 
> < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot C a >
> 
> 
> On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Allison Friedman <
> afriedman at rateitgreen.com> wrote:
> 

On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Allison Friedman <
afriedman at rateitgreen.com> wrote:

Hi Reuben -

Thanks for the conversation.

Maybe I saw your note a few weeks ago subliminally and that?s why I was
writing.  These chains get confusing, which is the reason I wrote.  If
people are going to share their time and wisdom, I want there to be able to
find the info.

This came up a few years ago. I gave some pros and cons then, and one of
the cons was that the group risked losing some great people if and when it
ever moved.  But I too have noted the decreasing frequency of conversation
on this and on another similar listserv that is all but dead (not sure
there was a post in 2016 on that one).  And when a conversation gets going,
I can?t really follow the replies down a long repetitive trail without
REALLY trying.

Another complication was that our site requires registration.  No $, but
we do have to set up accounts.  Maybe there?s a way to short that and have
an account waiting for anyone who wanted, but our registration involves
creating screen names and such.  So, I don?t know, you?d have to have
agreement for everyone to start with some default, like using real names or
last initials and first names..., or to go register new.  I make no
presumption anyone else wants to consider a move - but it seems worth
mentioning the option when I really struggle to follow.

As for topics, Rate It Green can host whatever anyone creates or needs or
asks.  So far, the site hosts what members and even interns have wanted to
start for groups.  We have a few US states, and a group someone started for
green building in India.  There?s one topic group, for Affordable Green
Housing.  Ah yes, and someone started a group long ago for emerging
professionals, but it has not been active recently.  But, there?s just no
limit to what the resource can host.  By location or by topic. So if you
wanted one group to keep everyone on this list together, you?d have it -
and people could receive notifications any time there?s a post (those are
all settings).  But if people also wanted to broaden out membership in
groups along specific topics, that could be done, too.  That?s part of why
this site took me so long to build (3 different programing languages and
multiple efforts each time to make it right).  It?s infinitely expandable -
it?s built with unbounded potential, but?  honestly, I don?t now have the
budget to market it.  So it sort of makes me sad when I see a great group
like this with all those email trails, and I do know in theory I can help.

Regarding topics, when someone creates a group (and I can create them),
all of our product and service categories, and all of our discussion
categories are already pre-available.  The site?s only showing you what
people have chosen to activate.  We?ve got 100+ directory categories that
groups can revolve around, and maybe 50 that were created for discussions.
A lot of the idea revolves around making it easier for people to find
information if we do the work up front to categorize it.

You can see product topics here, represented in the directory: http://www.
rateitgreen.com/green-building-directory/products

Services here: http://www.rateitgreen.com/green-building-directory/
services

Discussions are here, but most are currently active in ?other? and not
specific product and service types yet:
http://www.rateitgreen.com/green-building-community/discussions
http://www.rateitgreen.com/green-building-community/sustainable-building-
discussions/other-green-building

Articles (new) are so far mostly general and come in here and there:
http://www.rateitgreen.com/articles

And current groups, as you saw.  These are completely customizable - Take
something over and use it as you wish.  This is what the flexibility was
built for:

http://www.rateitgreen.com/green-building-community/
sustainable-building-groups-all

I do know of some other resources and would be willing to share what I
know.  There aren?t a ton and some have closed or reduced functionality in
recent years.  Others are not free, and one of the best of these doesn?t
offer conversations.  But I don?t know of another open resource that can
categorize and welcome people and conversations so openly.  The trick is,
you get back out what you put in.  If you let me know what you need, you
can create it or I can.  No limit.

You can?t be all things to all people, and in the past I heard both ?What
a neat idea and resource for consumers!? and at the same time, ?Oh, this
has so much potential to connect pros.?  Really, I wanted people and
companies and organizations to self organize along the lines of topics and
areas and affiliations so that everyone out there decides how to connect
and what to organize those connections around. it?s not all things to all
people as much as, ?What do YOU want to share or ask that pertains to green
building??  I feel we need to widen the umbrella and let people with
experience on a topic, no mater who they are, reach others who want to know
about that experience.  Some people will just join one conversation and not
want to connect with a ?group.?  Others have recently asked just to post an
article to share on one topic they know.  I see this ?group? on this
listserv as an inspiring and unique set of really knowledgeable people who
know how to solve problems, and who make the time to help each other out.
I don?t want to see that lost in any way, and yet I do feel that the rest
of the world would benefit from these solutions being more available, and
that this group might benefit from organized threads in one place, where
the replies don?t repeat each time.

Connect with me directly or here if you?d like to chat.  I am here if I
can help.  I felt it was time to remind and offer.  I just have built this
resource specifically to help anyone who wants to connect on these and
related topics, and people like all of you inspire me and are part of the
stakeholders I envisioned.  So while I am not a ?salesperson,? even for
something that is free, I did feel my gosh, this is part of what we built
this platform to help with.

The challenge remains:  Moving has risks.  But so does staying in place.
At least now the functionality I was working on in the past actually
works.  With your feedback, I can adjust and make a group into what will
serve you - and anyone looking for your wisdom - work.  I believed in still
do in enabling infinite conversations that others can find and read as
well, even if they aren?t technically in the group.  Maybe they?d also be
welcome in?   (And if not, I have to look into making private groups work,
or moderated, where you can decide.  But as far as I know, this listserv
has been open?)

Thanks again,
Allison

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 13:09:20 -0800
From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Conversation/Listserv Format
Message-ID:
<CAE5fceAwAouYMEPY9f4NJV0SQoaP4m1WFoZfz-4XVc0n96eAMw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

When you say 'platform' is that similar to what I would call a 'discussion
forum'? Something with a home base url and a bit more colorful than an
email list?

I've long assumed that part of the decline in activity here on our
longstanding list could be explained by folks drifting to these slightly
more visually engaging formats, rather than that the interest in green
building per se might have declined.
I'm not a computer person so haven't the foggiest idea how to set up or
maintain such a forum/platform, but I do participate in a variety of such
forums and certainly think they could work great for our topic. The
question I asked a few weeks ago was whether there were particular forums
to which folks here had in fact drifted. Your list of forums, Allison,
didn't seem to include any obvious analogue to this email discussion list,
though perhaps you were suggesting one could be created and added to that
list which would in essence substitute for our email discussions?

On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Allison Friedman <
afriedman at rateitgreen.com> wrote:

If this format is really working for everyone, great.

If not, and it used to come up every few years, let me know if I can
help.  I am not saying that I have found the perfect solution, but with
your help (feedback and info posted) I'd have a better shot at delivering
it - for everyone.  (Last time this question came up a few years ago, I was
still working to make things work ?foundationally," as I wanted.)

I honestly can?t follow these conversations when they get long.  And more
importantly, the answers aren?t seen out side the group. Why not have the
solutions shared reach more people?

I am glad to see more activity recently. Honestly, this group of people
makes me believe that more is known and more is getting done to build
better and greener than most people know.  Still, we need hundreds of
thousands of people talking like this.  And I want people to be able to
learn from those who have come before.

Here are our groups so far.  The site can handle any topic, or type of
categorization.  If we don?t have it, I?ll just add it.

http://www.rateitgreen.com/green-building-community/
sustainable-building-groups-all

If moving to a platform is of interest, find me.  If not, well I will
still be here. These 10 replies just made me think of brining the idea back
up.  You want to be able to categorize your own ideas, and I think we can
do so much more if others can see the information as well.  (information in
groups lives in groups, but can also optionally ?cross post? to discussions
so others can find it by topic).

Thanks for doing what you all do.  I will help when I see questions I can
help with (or find someone to help with), regardless.
Allison

Allison Friedman
Rate It Green
www.rateitgreen.com
@rateitgreen
@MAGreenbuilding

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