[Greenbuilding] Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2
Reuben Deumling
9watts at gmail.com
Sun Dec 17 13:38:10 CST 2017
Thanks for that, Gordon. I so appreciate that. I've had the nuances of how
RH related to temperature explained to me but have never really grasped the
essence of that relationship. What you says gives me hope. Thank you.
On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Gordon West <gordon.west at rtnewmexico.com>
wrote:
> Reuben,
>
> You need to measure the relative humidity (RH) of your inside air and
> compare it to the RH of outside air after it has been heated up to inside
> air temp.
>
> RH goes down as temperature goes up. The outside air is probably drier
> that your inside air after heating to room temperature.
>
> According to this chart https://www.aprilaire.com/benefits/preservation/
> relative-humidity-chart , if the outdoor temp is 40F and the RH is 100%,
> then the RH heated indoors will be just 36%.
>
> Gordon
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2017, at 12:00 PM, greenbuilding-request at lists.
> bioenergylists.org wrote:
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Reuben Deumling)
> 2. Re: dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Michael O'Brien)
> 3. Re: dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Reuben Deumling)
> 4. Re: dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Michael O'Brien)
> 5. Re: dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Reuben Deumling)
> 6. ? 24" vented range hoods? (Reuben Deumling)
> 7. Re: dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Carmine Vasile)
> 8. Re: dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Reuben Deumling)
> 9. Re: dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Michael O'Brien)
> 10. Re: dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Reuben Deumling)
> 11. Re: dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Michael O'Brien)
> 12. Re: dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air? (Reuben Deumling)
> 13. Re: ? 24" vented range hoods? (Clarke Olsen)
> 14. Re: ? 24" vented range hoods? (Alan Abrams)
> 15. Re: ? 24" vented range hoods? (Reuben Deumling)
> 16. Re: ? 24" vented range hoods? (Joe Killian)
> 17. Best House (Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn)
> 18. Re: Best House (Reuben Deumling)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 12:13:50 -0800
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: elitalking <elitalking at rockbridge.net>
> Cc: John Straube <john at buildingscience.com>,
> greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org, "John O'Brien"
> <john at boardom.ca>, satjiwan at alumni.brandeis.edu, listserv Green
> Building new <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceBdKaN9w5T_MJ=Q+-ErcUW_hBWdPh95=KSdYkCnyJ2x5g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I'm going to piggy back onto a seven year old thread full of interesting
> insights on essentially the same subject.
>
> Here's my situation:
>
> 650 square foot single story Craftsman with R13 dense pack cellulose walls
> heated entirely with a wood stove (no outside air source) in PNW
> where--unlike many of you--our humidity mostly occurs in the winter. We
> have not hitherto had either a bathroom fan or a vent hood over the kitchen
> stove. I've been meaning to install both forever, but the complexities of
> managing the humidity this earlier thread hints at have kept me from
> actually buying any hardware or making much progress otherwise.
>
> I'm expecting to install both an exhaust fan for the single bathroom and
> one for the kitchen stove, and that part is straightforward enough, but my
> worry is that in the winter my fans may in use end up drawing high humidity
> outside air into the house through cracks around the exterior doors or
> windows(?) diluting any hoped for effects from the fans.
>
> Sidebar: minor evidence of mold can be found--with some scrutiny--in the
> tile grout in the bathroom, some on firewood pieces that cured outside and
> are brought inside, as well as on the underside of our daughter's cheapie
> mattress. The urgency around reviving this project is related to a hope
> that some of this potential for mold growth could be reduced.
>
> Oh and I have a(n Energystar-qualifying) dehumidifier as well, but have
> only run tests with it in the basement so far and am not excited about the
> electricity implications of running it continuously or for long
> stretches....
>
> Any and all insights and suggestions are as always welcome and appreciated.
>
> Reuben
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:48 PM, elitalking <elitalking at rockbridge.net>
> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Straube"
>
> Short answer again.
>
> ERVs do not dehumidify. The reduce the load on the dehumidifier when and
> only when it is lower RH indoors than a outdoors.
>
>
> Yes. Then if there is not another process to condense the vapor out of
> the air such as air conditioner, dehumidifier, or desicants, then there is
> no benifit to latent heat transfer. However, when you mechanically dry the
> interior air, the ERV will preserve the value of that dehumidification.
> Right? Strategies of night flushing cooler high relative humidity at night
> does not qualify.
>
> Eli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 23:15:39 +0100
> From: "Michael O'Brien" <obrien at hevanet.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID: <FEBECD61-C28C-4E62-8519-F6BC6F9B1C7C at hevanet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> A dehumidifier removes heat from water and leaves it in the space. They
> have a COP of about 1.2 (last I checked), so you could think of it as a
> supplemental heater.
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 9:13 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm going to piggy back onto a seven year old thread full of interesting
> insights on essentially the same subject.
>
> Here's my situation:
>
> 650 square foot single story Craftsman with R13 dense pack cellulose walls
> heated entirely with a wood stove (no outside air source) in PNW
> where--unlike many of you--our humidity mostly occurs in the winter. We
> have not hitherto had either a bathroom fan or a vent hood over the kitchen
> stove. I've been meaning to install both forever, but the complexities of
> managing the humidity this earlier thread hints at have kept me from
> actually buying any hardware or making much progress otherwise.
>
> I'm expecting to install both an exhaust fan for the single bathroom and
> one for the kitchen stove, and that part is straightforward enough, but my
> worry is that in the winter my fans may in use end up drawing high humidity
> outside air into the house through cracks around the exterior doors or
> windows(?) diluting any hoped for effects from the fans.
>
> Sidebar: minor evidence of mold can be found--with some scrutiny--in the
> tile grout in the bathroom, some on firewood pieces that cured outside and
> are brought inside, as well as on the underside of our daughter's cheapie
> mattress. The urgency around reviving this project is related to a hope
> that some of this potential for mold growth could be reduced.
>
> Oh and I have a(n Energystar-qualifying) dehumidifier as well, but have
> only run tests with it in the basement so far and am not excited about the
> electricity implications of running it continuously or for long
> stretches....
>
> Any and all insights and suggestions are as always welcome and appreciated.
>
> Reuben
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:48 PM, elitalking <elitalking at rockbridge.net>
> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Straube"
>
> Short answer again.
> ERVs do not dehumidify. The reduce the load on the dehumidifier when and
> only when it is lower RH indoors than a outdoors.
>
>
> Yes. Then if there is not another process to condense the vapor out of
> the air such as air conditioner, dehumidifier, or desicants, then there is
> no benifit to latent heat transfer. However, when you mechanically dry the
> interior air, the ERV will preserve the value of that dehumidification.
> Right? Strategies of night flushing cooler high relative humidity at night
> does not qualify.
>
> Eli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 14:23:42 -0800
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceArKk6=ygQjVaJGuu4FK_j5OEvZ0OuGfnQUvNbc2sEePw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> True, Though electric heat is about the last thing I'd be inclined to
> welcome ;-)
>
> The dehumidifier is an ingenious device, to be sure. Especially when you
> can pipe the condensate through the wall. But I guess I'm spooked by
> something akin to a refrigerator running that much.*
>
> * of course I don't know how much it would actually run as I've not tried
> it in the living space and don't know its duty cycle, but my hope is that
> there might be a (passive?) way to accomplish some of these goals without a
> compressor running a lot of the time....
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> A dehumidifier removes heat from water and leaves it in the space. They
> have a COP of about 1.2 (last I checked), so you could think of it as a
> supplemental heater.
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 9:13 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm going to piggy back onto a seven year old thread full of interesting
> insights on essentially the same subject.
>
> Here's my situation:
>
> 650 square foot single story Craftsman with R13 dense pack cellulose walls
> heated entirely with a wood stove (no outside air source) in PNW
> where--unlike many of you--our humidity mostly occurs in the winter. We
> have not hitherto had either a bathroom fan or a vent hood over the kitchen
> stove. I've been meaning to install both forever, but the complexities of
> managing the humidity this earlier thread hints at have kept me from
> actually buying any hardware or making much progress otherwise.
>
> I'm expecting to install both an exhaust fan for the single bathroom and
> one for the kitchen stove, and that part is straightforward enough, but my
> worry is that in the winter my fans may in use end up drawing high humidity
> outside air into the house through cracks around the exterior doors or
> windows(?) diluting any hoped for effects from the fans.
>
> Sidebar: minor evidence of mold can be found--with some scrutiny--in the
> tile grout in the bathroom, some on firewood pieces that cured outside and
> are brought inside, as well as on the underside of our daughter's cheapie
> mattress. The urgency around reviving this project is related to a hope
> that some of this potential for mold growth could be reduced.
>
> Oh and I have a(n Energystar-qualifying) dehumidifier as well, but have
> only run tests with it in the basement so far and am not excited about the
> electricity implications of running it continuously or for long
> stretches....
>
> Any and all insights and suggestions are as always welcome and appreciated.
>
> Reuben
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:48 PM, elitalking <elitalking at rockbridge.net>
> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Straube"
>
> Short answer again.
>
> ERVs do not dehumidify. The reduce the load on the dehumidifier when and
> only when it is lower RH indoors than a outdoors.
>
>
> Yes. Then if there is not another process to condense the vapor out of
> the air such as air conditioner, dehumidifier, or desicants, then there is
> no benifit to latent heat transfer. However, when you mechanically dry the
> interior air, the ERV will preserve the value of that dehumidification.
> Right? Strategies of night flushing cooler high relative humidity at night
> does not qualify.
>
> Eli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi
> ng_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 23:31:38 +0100
> From: "Michael O'Brien" <obrien at hevanet.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID: <25EC568D-0154-4323-AA04-A3974335DCD1 at hevanet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> What?s the issue with electric heat?
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:23 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> True, Though electric heat is about the last thing I'd be inclined to
> welcome ;-)
>
> The dehumidifier is an ingenious device, to be sure. Especially when you
> can pipe the condensate through the wall. But I guess I'm spooked by
> something akin to a refrigerator running that much.*
>
> * of course I don't know how much it would actually run as I've not tried
> it in the living space and don't know its duty cycle, but my hope is that
> there might be a (passive?) way to accomplish some of these goals without a
> compressor running a lot of the time....
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com>
> wrote:
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> A dehumidifier removes heat from water and leaves it in the space. They
> have a COP of about 1.2 (last I checked), so you could think of it as a
> supplemental heater.
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 9:13 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm going to piggy back onto a seven year old thread full of interesting
> insights on essentially the same subject.
>
> Here's my situation:
>
> 650 square foot single story Craftsman with R13 dense pack cellulose walls
> heated entirely with a wood stove (no outside air source) in PNW
> where--unlike many of you--our humidity mostly occurs in the winter. We
> have not hitherto had either a bathroom fan or a vent hood over the kitchen
> stove. I've been meaning to install both forever, but the complexities of
> managing the humidity this earlier thread hints at have kept me from
> actually buying any hardware or making much progress otherwise.
>
> I'm expecting to install both an exhaust fan for the single bathroom and
> one for the kitchen stove, and that part is straightforward enough, but my
> worry is that in the winter my fans may in use end up drawing high humidity
> outside air into the house through cracks around the exterior doors or
> windows(?) diluting any hoped for effects from the fans.
>
> Sidebar: minor evidence of mold can be found--with some scrutiny--in the
> tile grout in the bathroom, some on firewood pieces that cured outside and
> are brought inside, as well as on the underside of our daughter's cheapie
> mattress. The urgency around reviving this project is related to a hope
> that some of this potential for mold growth could be reduced.
>
> Oh and I have a(n Energystar-qualifying) dehumidifier as well, but have
> only run tests with it in the basement so far and am not excited about the
> electricity implications of running it continuously or for long
> stretches....
>
> Any and all insights and suggestions are as always welcome and appreciated.
>
> Reuben
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:48 PM, elitalking <elitalking at rockbridge.net>
> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Straube"
>
> Short answer again.
> ERVs do not dehumidify. The reduce the load on the dehumidifier when and
> only when it is lower RH indoors than a outdoors.
>
>
> Yes. Then if there is not another process to condense the vapor out of
> the air such as air conditioner, dehumidifier, or desicants, then there is
> no benifit to latent heat transfer. However, when you mechanically dry the
> interior air, the ERV will preserve the value of that dehumidification.
> Right? Strategies of night flushing cooler high relative humidity at night
> does not qualify.
>
> Eli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 14:40:25 -0800
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceALs+P4FCkFMvdHzGSeFKtaPtGgjkHjMg3V9VPDACNRBQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Well I've always thought that it was the quintessential thermodynamic
> insult; a means of converting the highest quality energy carrier (back)
> into, well, heat: something that in theory and practice a large pile of
> leaves can produce.
>
> I'm aware that as a customer who's utility tries hard to convince him that
> the electrons piped into his house come from wind turbines, the heat losses
> that dog the above conversions when starting with a fossil fuel are
> reduced, but nevertheless I can't shake the loathing I feel when
> contemplating such an expensive and fragile technical system all to warm up
> the air.
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:31 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com>
> wrote:
>
> What?s the issue with electric heat?
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:23 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> True, Though electric heat is about the last thing I'd be inclined to
> welcome ;-)
>
> The dehumidifier is an ingenious device, to be sure. Especially when you
> can pipe the condensate through the wall. But I guess I'm spooked by
> something akin to a refrigerator running that much.*
>
> * of course I don't know how much it would actually run as I've not tried
> it in the living space and don't know its duty cycle, but my hope is that
> there might be a (passive?) way to accomplish some of these goals without a
> compressor running a lot of the time....
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> A dehumidifier removes heat from water and leaves it in the space. They
> have a COP of about 1.2 (last I checked), so you could think of it as a
> supplemental heater.
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 9:13 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm going to piggy back onto a seven year old thread full of interesting
> insights on essentially the same subject.
>
> Here's my situation:
>
> 650 square foot single story Craftsman with R13 dense pack cellulose
> walls heated entirely with a wood stove (no outside air source) in PNW
> where--unlike many of you--our humidity mostly occurs in the winter. We
> have not hitherto had either a bathroom fan or a vent hood over the kitchen
> stove. I've been meaning to install both forever, but the complexities of
> managing the humidity this earlier thread hints at have kept me from
> actually buying any hardware or making much progress otherwise.
>
> I'm expecting to install both an exhaust fan for the single bathroom and
> one for the kitchen stove, and that part is straightforward enough, but my
> worry is that in the winter my fans may in use end up drawing high humidity
> outside air into the house through cracks around the exterior doors or
> windows(?) diluting any hoped for effects from the fans.
>
> Sidebar: minor evidence of mold can be found--with some scrutiny--in the
> tile grout in the bathroom, some on firewood pieces that cured outside and
> are brought inside, as well as on the underside of our daughter's cheapie
> mattress. The urgency around reviving this project is related to a hope
> that some of this potential for mold growth could be reduced.
>
> Oh and I have a(n Energystar-qualifying) dehumidifier as well, but have
> only run tests with it in the basement so far and am not excited about the
> electricity implications of running it continuously or for long
> stretches....
>
> Any and all insights and suggestions are as always welcome and
> appreciated.
>
> Reuben
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:48 PM, elitalking <elitalking at rockbridge.net>
> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Straube"
>
> Short answer again.
>
> ERVs do not dehumidify. The reduce the load on the dehumidifier when
> and only when it is lower RH indoors than a outdoors.
>
>
> Yes. Then if there is not another process to condense the vapor out of
> the air such as air conditioner, dehumidifier, or desicants, then there is
> no benifit to latent heat transfer. However, when you mechanically dry the
> interior air, the ERV will preserve the value of that dehumidification.
> Right? Strategies of night flushing cooler high relative humidity at night
> does not qualify.
>
> Eli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi
> ng_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> ng_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 14:53:59 -0800
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Greenbuilding <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] ? 24" vented range hoods?
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceARJT_Td08kp-0S=KZQcjONHSP=FLf2pUcSdO5Xdjya4A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Another related question:
> It seems that as with many products this market is rather unevenly stocked.
> Below 30" the choices shrink dramatically, and Energy Star models are
> (surprise!) clustered up in the pricey end of the spectrum.
>
> Are there perchance any small, reasonably priced, energy miserly vent hoods
> I haven't found? Of course, our kitchen stove is a mere 20" wide, so the
> narrower the better...
>
> For that matter, how complicated are these appliances? Can I buy the guts
> or a drop in unit out of which to make a DIY vent hood?
>
> Thanks!
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 22:56:10 +0000
> From: Carmine Vasile <gfx-ch at msn.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID:
> <BN6PR2201MB1250C42367BE3561805EAA949A080 at BN6PR2201MB1250.
> namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Reuben: Why do you continue to disparage electric heat? Now that high
> efficiency solar PV panels are available, the site efficiency of
> all-electric homes is much much higher than the systems you continue to
> promote in Trumpian fashion.
>
> Since the winter of 2015, we have been heating our house on Long
> Island, New York with tiny ECO 11; an 11 kW tankless water heater that cost
> $209.99 at home depot. It was installed to replace a Keltec C150, which now
> costs over 7 times as much. Our system is illustrated in Fig. 2 of Rocky
> Mountain Institute?s Home Energy Brief #5 WATER HEATING @
> http://gfxtechnology.com/RMI-HE-5.pdf.
>
> You should stop misleading people.
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Dr. Carmine F. Vasile
>
> ________________________________
> From: Greenbuilding <greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> on
> behalf of Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 5:23:42 PM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
>
> True, Though electric heat is about the last thing I'd be inclined to
> welcome ;-)
>
> The dehumidifier is an ingenious device, to be sure. Especially when you
> can pipe the condensate through the wall. But I guess I'm spooked by
> something akin to a refrigerator running that much.*
>
> * of course I don't know how much it would actually run as I've not tried
> it in the living space and don't know its duty cycle, but my hope is that
> there might be a (passive?) way to accomplish some of these goals without a
> compressor running a lot of the time....
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com
> <mailto:obrien at hevanet.com>> wrote:
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> A dehumidifier removes heat from water and leaves it in the space. They
> have a COP of about 1.2 (last I checked), so you could think of it as a
> supplemental heater.
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 9:13 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com<mailto:
> 9watts at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I'm going to piggy back onto a seven year old thread full of interesting
> insights on essentially the same subject.
>
> Here's my situation:
>
> 650 square foot single story Craftsman with R13 dense pack cellulose walls
> heated entirely with a wood stove (no outside air source) in PNW
> where--unlike many of you--our humidity mostly occurs in the winter. We
> have not hitherto had either a bathroom fan or a vent hood over the kitchen
> stove. I've been meaning to install both forever, but the complexities of
> managing the humidity this earlier thread hints at have kept me from
> actually buying any hardware or making much progress otherwise.
>
> I'm expecting to install both an exhaust fan for the single bathroom and
> one for the kitchen stove, and that part is straightforward enough, but my
> worry is that in the winter my fans may in use end up drawing high humidity
> outside air into the house through cracks around the exterior doors or
> windows(?) diluting any hoped for effects from the fans.
>
> Sidebar: minor evidence of mold can be found--with some scrutiny--in the
> tile grout in the bathroom, some on firewood pieces that cured outside and
> are brought inside, as well as on the underside of our daughter's cheapie
> mattress. The urgency around reviving this project is related to a hope
> that some of this potential for mold growth could be reduced.
>
> Oh and I have a(n Energystar-qualifying) dehumidifier as well, but have
> only run tests with it in the basement so far and am not excited about the
> electricity implications of running it continuously or for long
> stretches....
>
> Any and all insights and suggestions are as always welcome and appreciated.
>
> Reuben
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:48 PM, elitalking <elitalking at rockbridge.net<
> mailto:elitalking at rockbridge.net>> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Straube"
>
> Short answer again.
> ERVs do not dehumidify. The reduce the load on the dehumidifier when and
> only when it is lower RH indoors than a outdoors.
>
> Yes. Then if there is not another process to condense the vapor out of
> the air such as air conditioner, dehumidifier, or desicants, then there is
> no benifit to latent heat transfer. However, when you mechanically dry the
> interior air, the ERV will preserve the value of that dehumidification.
> Right? Strategies of night flushing cooler high relative humidity at night
> does not qualify.
>
> Eli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
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> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org>
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 15:07:08 -0800
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceCQbcmDe=4JTad2M-wKWj+1PeG9b86Ls4prPv=VqN0Aug at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Those are some colorful charges, Carmine.
>
> I stated my assumptions.
>
> You mentioned both cost and size of your system. Those characteristics have
> nothing whatsoever to do with thermodynamics and don't help me understand
> how your system does an end run around my concerns.
>
> "high efficiency solar PV panels"
>
> I am not familiar with these. Please enlighten me.
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:56 PM, Carmine Vasile <gfx-ch at msn.com> wrote:
>
> Reuben: Why do you continue to disparage electric heat? Now that high
> efficiency solar PV panels are available, the site efficiency of
> all-electric homes is much much higher than the systems you continue to
> promote in Trumpian fashion.
>
> Since the winter of 2015, we have been heating our house on Long
> Island, New York with tiny ECO 11; an 11 kW tankless water heater that cost
> $209.99 at home depot. It was installed to replace a Keltec C150, which
> now costs over 7 times as much. Our system is illustrated in Fig. 2 of
> Rocky
> Mountain Institute?s Home Energy Brief #5 WATER HEATING @
> http://gfxtechnology.com/RMI-HE-5.pdf.
>
> You should stop misleading people.
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Dr. Carmine F. Vasile
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Greenbuilding <greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> on
> behalf of Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 16, 2017 5:23:42 PM
> *To:* Green Building
> *Subject:* Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
>
> True, Though electric heat is about the last thing I'd be inclined to
> welcome ;-)
>
> The dehumidifier is an ingenious device, to be sure. Especially when you
> can pipe the condensate through the wall. But I guess I'm spooked by
> something akin to a refrigerator running that much.*
>
> * of course I don't know how much it would actually run as I've not tried
> it in the living space and don't know its duty cycle, but my hope is that
> there might be a (passive?) way to accomplish some of these goals without a
> compressor running a lot of the time....
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> A dehumidifier removes heat from water and leaves it in the space. They
> have a COP of about 1.2 (last I checked), so you could think of it as a
> supplemental heater.
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 9:13 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm going to piggy back onto a seven year old thread full of interesting
> insights on essentially the same subject.
>
> Here's my situation:
>
> 650 square foot single story Craftsman with R13 dense pack cellulose walls
> heated entirely with a wood stove (no outside air source) in PNW
> where--unlike many of you--our humidity mostly occurs in the winter. We
> have not hitherto had either a bathroom fan or a vent hood over the kitchen
> stove. I've been meaning to install both forever, but the complexities of
> managing the humidity this earlier thread hints at have kept me from
> actually buying any hardware or making much progress otherwise.
>
> I'm expecting to install both an exhaust fan for the single bathroom and
> one for the kitchen stove, and that part is straightforward enough, but my
> worry is that in the winter my fans may in use end up drawing high humidity
> outside air into the house through cracks around the exterior doors or
> windows(?) diluting any hoped for effects from the fans.
>
> Sidebar: minor evidence of mold can be found--with some scrutiny--in the
> tile grout in the bathroom, some on firewood pieces that cured outside and
> are brought inside, as well as on the underside of our daughter's cheapie
> mattress. The urgency around reviving this project is related to a hope
> that some of this potential for mold growth could be reduced.
>
> Oh and I have a(n Energystar-qualifying) dehumidifier as well, but have
> only run tests with it in the basement so far and am not excited about the
> electricity implications of running it continuously or for long
> stretches....
>
> Any and all insights and suggestions are as always welcome and appreciated.
>
> Reuben
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:48 PM, elitalking <elitalking at rockbridge.net>
> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Straube"
>
> Short answer again.
> ERVs do not dehumidify. The reduce the load on the dehumidifier when and
> only when it is lower RH indoors than a outdoors.
>
>
> Yes. Then if there is not another process to condense the vapor out of
> the air such as air conditioner, dehumidifier, or desicants, then there is
> no benifit to latent heat transfer. However, when you mechanically dry the
> interior air, the ERV will preserve the value of that dehumidification.
> Right? Strategies of night flushing cooler high relative humidity at night
> does not qualify.
>
> Eli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi
> ng_lists.bioenergylists.org
> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.
> bioenergylists.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgreenbuilding_
> lists.bioenergylists.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C24453e19c5d244c5b79d08d544d4
> 256e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636490600310447557&sdata=ShPJ7LJx5sD7FGS2yATZSbHlAAKvl0
> xlwCV0NzKT%2F7I%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> ng_lists.bioenergylists.org
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> bioenergylists.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgreenbuilding_
> lists.bioenergylists.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C24453e19c5d244c5b79d08d544d4
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> xlwCV0NzKT%2F7I%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> ng_lists.bioenergylists.org
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> bioenergylists.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgreenbuilding_
> lists.bioenergylists.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C24453e19c5d244c5b79d08d544d4
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> xlwCV0NzKT%2F7I%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 03:51:35 +0100
> From: "Michael O'Brien" <obrien at hevanet.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID: <36842127-25F1-4935-AAEC-D77ABB99C66F at hevanet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> The primary purpose for the dehumidifier is to dry the air enough to
> prevent condensation and mold. The recaptured heat is a side benefit. Is it
> OK to use electricity to maintain a healthful environment?
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 17, 2017, at 12:07 AM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Those are some colorful charges, Carmine.
>
> I stated my assumptions.
>
> You mentioned both cost and size of your system. Those characteristics
> have nothing whatsoever to do with thermodynamics and don't help me
> understand how your system does an end run around my concerns.
>
> "high efficiency solar PV panels"
>
> I am not familiar with these. Please enlighten me.
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:56 PM, Carmine Vasile <gfx-ch at msn.com> wrote:
> Reuben: Why do you continue to disparage electric heat? Now that high
> efficiency solar PV panels are available, the site efficiency of
> all-electric homes is much much higher than the systems you continue to
> promote in Trumpian fashion.
> Since the winter of 2015, we have been heating our house on Long
> Island, New York with tiny ECO 11; an 11 kW tankless water heater that cost
> $209.99 at home depot. It was installed to replace a Keltec C150, which now
> costs over 7 times as much. Our system is illustrated in Fig. 2 of Rocky
> Mountain Institute?s Home Energy Brief #5 WATER HEATING @
> http://gfxtechnology.com/RMI-HE-5.pdf.
> You should stop misleading people.
> Yours truly,
> Dr. Carmine F. Vasile
>
> From: Greenbuilding <greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> on
> behalf of Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 5:23:42 PM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
>
> True, Though electric heat is about the last thing I'd be inclined to
> welcome ;-)
>
> The dehumidifier is an ingenious device, to be sure. Especially when you
> can pipe the condensate through the wall. But I guess I'm spooked by
> something akin to a refrigerator running that much.*
>
> * of course I don't know how much it would actually run as I've not tried
> it in the living space and don't know its duty cycle, but my hope is that
> there might be a (passive?) way to accomplish some of these goals without a
> compressor running a lot of the time....
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com>
> wrote:
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> A dehumidifier removes heat from water and leaves it in the space. They
> have a COP of about 1.2 (last I checked), so you could think of it as a
> supplemental heater.
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 9:13 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm going to piggy back onto a seven year old thread full of interesting
> insights on essentially the same subject.
>
> Here's my situation:
>
> 650 square foot single story Craftsman with R13 dense pack cellulose walls
> heated entirely with a wood stove (no outside air source) in PNW
> where--unlike many of you--our humidity mostly occurs in the winter. We
> have not hitherto had either a bathroom fan or a vent hood over the kitchen
> stove. I've been meaning to install both forever, but the complexities of
> managing the humidity this earlier thread hints at have kept me from
> actually buying any hardware or making much progress otherwise.
>
> I'm expecting to install both an exhaust fan for the single bathroom and
> one for the kitchen stove, and that part is straightforward enough, but my
> worry is that in the winter my fans may in use end up drawing high humidity
> outside air into the house through cracks around the exterior doors or
> windows(?) diluting any hoped for effects from the fans.
>
> Sidebar: minor evidence of mold can be found--with some scrutiny--in the
> tile grout in the bathroom, some on firewood pieces that cured outside and
> are brought inside, as well as on the underside of our daughter's cheapie
> mattress. The urgency around reviving this project is related to a hope
> that some of this potential for mold growth could be reduced.
>
> Oh and I have a(n Energystar-qualifying) dehumidifier as well, but have
> only run tests with it in the basement so far and am not excited about the
> electricity implications of running it continuously or for long
> stretches....
>
> Any and all insights and suggestions are as always welcome and appreciated.
>
> Reuben
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:48 PM, elitalking <elitalking at rockbridge.net>
> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Straube"
>
> Short answer again.
> ERVs do not dehumidify. The reduce the load on the dehumidifier when and
> only when it is lower RH indoors than a outdoors.
>
> Yes. Then if there is not another process to condense the vapor out of
> the air such as air conditioner, dehumidifier, or desicants, then there is
> no benifit to latent heat transfer. However, when you mechanically dry the
> interior air, the ERV will preserve the value of that dehumidification.
> Right? Strategies of night flushing cooler high relative humidity at night
> does not qualify.
>
> Eli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> bioenergylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> bioenergylists.org
>
>
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>
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>
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>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
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>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 19:10:26 -0800
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceDTf3_+CDhORQ-dp7U-EY4BX_4YvaLNAihdd=xRV+wgbg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> The primary purpose for the dehumidifier is to dry the air enough to
> prevent condensation and mold. The recaptured heat is a side benefit.
>
> Yes
>
>
>
> Is it OK to use electricity to maintain a healthful environment?
>
>
> I rarely get to decide these things, but since you asked me - I'd be
> inclined to say: *Yes, but preferably after all other options have been
> tried and found wanting.* Passive strategies (I thought) were generally
> preferred since they tend not to place much of a burden on resources we
> think of as scarce, or pose risks we would rather avoid.
>
> In our society the default position for generations has been to employ,
> substitute, specify a device that runs on fossil fuels or
> electricity-generated-with-fossil fuels for simpler, vernacular strategies
> or habits that predate this. There are hundreds (thousands?) of reasons why
> this is so, but the reason I used the word loathing in an earlier reply is
> that I can't in 2017 in good conscience go along with that default position
> without first investigating whether an alternative that is less fraught
> isn't available. I thought that was the essence of Green Building.
>
> I guess I should also note that one of the chief reasons our environment is
> headed for *unhealthful*ness seems to be our voracious appetite and
> magnificent ability to justify ever more uses for electricity.
> -------------- next part --------------
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> attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 05:23:02 +0100
> From: "Michael O'Brien" <obrien at hevanet.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID: <9011D1F0-D14C-4321-9C95-B6B09556FAE1 at hevanet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> I understand the context. I thought you were concerned thst passive wasn?t
> sufficient?
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 17, 2017, at 4:10 AM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com>
> wrote:
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> The primary purpose for the dehumidifier is to dry the air enough to
> prevent condensation and mold. The recaptured heat is a side benefit.
>
> Yes
>
>
> Is it OK to use electricity to maintain a healthful environment?
>
>
> I rarely get to decide these things, but since you asked me - I'd be
> inclined to say: Yes, but preferably after all other options have been
> tried and found wanting. Passive strategies (I thought) were generally
> preferred since they tend not to place much of a burden on resources we
> think of as scarce, or pose risks we would rather avoid.
>
> In our society the default position for generations has been to employ,
> substitute, specify a device that runs on fossil fuels or
> electricity-generated-with-fossil fuels for simpler, vernacular
> strategies or habits that predate this. There are hundreds (thousands?) of
> reasons why this is so, but the reason I used the word loathing in an
> earlier reply is that I can't in 2017 in good conscience go along with that
> default position without first investigating whether an alternative that is
> less fraught isn't available. I thought that was the essence of Green
> Building.
>
> I guess I should also note that one of the chief reasons our environment
> is headed for unhealthfulness seems to be our voracious appetite and
> magnificent ability to justify ever more uses for electricity.
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20171217/ee82bcf6/
> attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 20:31:36 -0800
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] dehumidifying bathrooms - makeup air?
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceAXtDa-za1=hwAtA-yj5iADP8DObti7mNcqXxJ4DaAw4A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I've got the heating under control, but the humidity is something I
> struggle with, both to understand and to rein in. I would be pleased to
> find passive ways to regulate it but don't know enough to say if that is
> realistic or possible.
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> I understand the context. I thought you were concerned thst passive wasn?t
> sufficient?
>
> Best, Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 17, 2017, at 4:10 AM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Michael O'Brien <obrien at hevanet.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Reuben?
>
> The primary purpose for the dehumidifier is to dry the air enough to
> prevent condensation and mold. The recaptured heat is a side benefit.
>
> Yes
>
>
>
> Is it OK to use electricity to maintain a healthful environment?
>
>
> I rarely get to decide these things, but since you asked me - I'd be
> inclined to say: *Yes, but preferably after all other options have been
> tried and found wanting.* Passive strategies (I thought) were generally
> preferred since they tend not to place much of a burden on resources we
> think of as scarce, or pose risks we would rather avoid.
>
> In our society the default position for generations has been to employ,
> substitute, specify a device that runs on fossil fuels or
> electricity-generated-with-fossil fuels for simpler, vernacular
> strategies or habits that predate this. There are hundreds (thousands?) of
> reasons why this is so, but the reason I used the word loathing in an
> earlier reply is that I can't in 2017 in good conscience go along with that
> default position without first investigating whether an alternative that is
> less fraught isn't available. I thought that was the essence of Green
> Building.
>
> I guess I should also note that one of the chief reasons our environment
> is headed for *unhealthful*ness seems to be our voracious appetite and
> magnificent ability to justify ever more uses for electricity.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
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> attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 10:28:39 -0500
> From: Clarke Olsen <colsen at fairpoint.net>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] ? 24" vented range hoods?
> Message-ID: <4D7DDF94-A0B7-4604-B1A3-5CF59D273390 at fairpoint.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I built an exhaust out of a unit from a tag sale, using a piece of "Smoked
> Chrome" un-backed laminate, from Chem-metal,
> for the shell.
> Clarke Olsen
> clarkeolsendesign.com
> 373 route 203
> Spencertown, NY 12165
> USA
> 518-392-4640 <(518)%20392-4640>
> colsen at taconic.net
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:53 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Another related question:
> It seems that as with many products this market is rather unevenly
> stocked. Below 30" the choices shrink dramatically, and Energy Star models
> are (surprise!) clustered up in the pricey end of the spectrum.
>
> Are there perchance any small, reasonably priced, energy miserly vent
> hoods I haven't found? Of course, our kitchen stove is a mere 20" wide, so
> the narrower the better...
>
> For that matter, how complicated are these appliances? Can I buy the guts
> or a drop in unit out of which to make a DIY vent hood?
>
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:06:57 -0500
> From: Alan Abrams <alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] ? 24" vented range hoods?
> Message-ID:
> <CADj3_s554E-gS1kyqvzhPdr304xFuyHeSzd9J8cXFHjB+O8gbw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> https://www.build.com/air-king-sev24ab/s705884?uid=
> 1884350&source=gg-gba-pla_1884350!c671739570!
> a35699070233!dc!ng&cvosrc=pla.google.1884350&cvo_cid=671739570&cvo_
> crid144908307322=&=&cvo_adgroup=35699070233&cvo_uniqueid=1884350&gclid=
> Cj0KCQiAyNjRBRCpARIsAPDBnn2xwT_XjzQAu9zK68Fb-S_CWO-
> pUhGuk0yJYjLoHw999GtuzaeHwb4aAhg2EALw_wcB
>
>
> Alan Abrams, CPBD, AIBD
> *Associate Designer Helicon Works Architects
> <http://www.heliconworksarchitects.com/>*
> *Certified Professional Building Designer, American Institute of Building
> Design <http://aibd.org/> *
>
> *President, National Council of Building Designer Certification
> <http://ncbdc.com/>*
> cell 202-437-8583 <(202)%20437-8583>
> alan at abramsdesignbuild.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 10:28 AM, Clarke Olsen <colsen at fairpoint.net>
> wrote:
>
> I built an exhaust out of a unit from a tag sale, using a piece of "Smoked
> Chrome" un-backed laminate, from Chem-metal,
> for the shell.
> Clarke Olsen
> clarkeolsendesign.com
> 373 route 203
> Spencertown, NY 12165
> USA
> 518-392-4640 <(518)%20392-4640>
> colsen at taconic.net
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:53 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Another related question:
> It seems that as with many products this market is rather unevenly
> stocked. Below 30" the choices shrink dramatically, and Energy Star models
> are (surprise!) clustered up in the pricey end of the spectrum.
>
> Are there perchance any small, reasonably priced, energy miserly vent
> hoods I haven't found? Of course, our kitchen stove is a mere 20" wide, so
> the narrower the better...
>
> For that matter, how complicated are these appliances? Can I buy the guts
> or a drop in unit out of which to make a DIY vent hood?
>
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 08:18:23 -0800
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] ? 24" vented range hoods?
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceDTZ2wrdFiA+C4r-UANiovB3dphHxT841H4f_wVQGGHmw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thanks, Alan.
>
> That looks like a serious contender. I note the (2) 50W halogen lights, and
> assume one could swap in something a bit more modest (LEDs?) with some
> fiddling. I've done plenty of wiring but don't have much experience
> swapping lights on appliances like this where getting the bezels and
> related hardware to fit is going to be pretty important.
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 8:06 AM, Alan Abrams <alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>
> wrote:
>
> https://www.build.com/air-king-sev24ab/s705884?uid=
> 1884350&source=gg-gba-pla_1884350!c671739570!
> a35699070233!dc!ng&cvosrc=pla.google.1884350&cvo_cid=671739570&cvo_
> crid144908307322=&=&cvo_adgroup=35699070233&cvo_uniqueid=1884350&gclid=
> Cj0KCQiAyNjRBRCpARIsAPDBnn2xwT_XjzQAu9zK68Fb-S_CWO-
> pUhGuk0yJYjLoHw999GtuzaeHwb4aAhg2EALw_wcB
>
>
> Alan Abrams, CPBD, AIBD
> *Associate Designer Helicon Works Architects
> <http://www.heliconworksarchitects.com/>*
> *Certified Professional Building Designer, American Institute of Building
> Design <http://aibd.org/> *
>
> *President, National Council of Building Designer Certification
> <http://ncbdc.com/>*
> cell 202-437-8583 <(202)%20437-8583> <(202)%20437-8583>
> alan at abramsdesignbuild.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 10:28 AM, Clarke Olsen <colsen at fairpoint.net>
> wrote:
>
> I built an exhaust out of a unit from a tag sale, using a piece of
> "Smoked Chrome" un-backed laminate, from Chem-metal,
> for the shell.
> Clarke Olsen
> clarkeolsendesign.com
> 373 route 203
> Spencertown, NY 12165
> USA
> 518-392-4640 <(518)%20392-4640> <(518)%20392-4640>
> colsen at taconic.net
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:53 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Another related question:
> It seems that as with many products this market is rather unevenly
> stocked. Below 30" the choices shrink dramatically, and Energy Star models
> are (surprise!) clustered up in the pricey end of the spectrum.
>
> Are there perchance any small, reasonably priced, energy miserly vent
> hoods I haven't found? Of course, our kitchen stove is a mere 20" wide, so
> the narrower the better...
>
> For that matter, how complicated are these appliances? Can I buy the guts
> or a drop in unit out of which to make a DIY vent hood?
>
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi
> ng_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi
> ng_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
>
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> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20171217/3f7c4ae4/
> attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 09:22:52 -0800
> From: Joe Killian <kaa-ajk at sonic.net>
> To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] ? 24" vented range hoods?
> Message-ID: <4b377372-6b71-e33b-9a70-2efd8ca8ab18 at sonic.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Reuben,
>
> ? These days LED light bulbs are made to replace incandescent in
> virtually every shape and voltage.? Living off-grid, we've gone to 100%
> LED in all sorts of fixtures.? One source I've used for some of the
> less-common bases/voltages is ledlight.com.
>
> Joe
>
>
> On 12/17/2017 8:18 AM, Reuben Deumling wrote:
>
> Thanks, Alan.
>
> That looks like a serious contender. I note the (2) 50W halogen
> lights, and assume one could swap in something a bit more modest
> (LEDs?) with some fiddling. I've done plenty of wiring but don't have
> much experience swapping lights on appliances like this where getting
> the bezels and related hardware to fit is going to be pretty important.
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 8:06 AM, Alan Abrams
> <alan at abramsdesignbuild.com <mailto:alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>> wrote:
>
> https://www.build.com/air-king-sev24ab/s705884?uid=
> 1884350&source=gg-gba-pla_1884350!c671739570!
> a35699070233!dc!ng&cvosrc=pla.google.1884350&cvo_cid=671739570&cvo_
> crid144908307322=&=&cvo_adgroup=35699070233&cvo_uniqueid=1884350&gclid=
> Cj0KCQiAyNjRBRCpARIsAPDBnn2xwT_XjzQAu9zK68Fb-S_CWO-
> pUhGuk0yJYjLoHw999GtuzaeHwb4aAhg2EALw_wcB
> <https://www.build.com/air-king-sev24ab/s705884?uid=
> 1884350&source=gg-gba-pla_1884350%21c671739570%21a35699070233%21dc%21ng&
> cvosrc=pla.google.1884350&cvo_cid=671739570&cvo_crid144908307322=&=&cvo_
> adgroup=35699070233&cvo_uniqueid=1884350&gclid=
> Cj0KCQiAyNjRBRCpARIsAPDBnn2xwT_XjzQAu9zK68Fb-S_CWO-
> pUhGuk0yJYjLoHw999GtuzaeHwb4aAhg2EALw_wcB>
>
>
> Alan Abrams, CPBD, AIBD*
> */Associate Designer Helicon Works Architects
> <http://www.heliconworksarchitects.com/>/
> /Certified Professional Building Designer, American Institute of
> Building Design <http://aibd.org/> /
> /President, National Council of Building Designer Certification
> <http://ncbdc.com/>
> /
> cell 202-437-8583 <(202)%20437-8583> <tel:%28202%29%20437-8583>
> alan at abramsdesignbuild.com <mailto:alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 10:28 AM, Clarke Olsen
> <colsen at fairpoint.net <mailto:colsen at fairpoint.net>> wrote:
>
> I built an exhaust out of a unit from a tag sale, using a
> piece of "Smoked Chrome" un-backed laminate, from Chem-metal,
> for the shell.
> Clarke Olsen
> clarkeolsendesign.com <http://clarkeolsendesign.com>
> 373 route 203
> Spencertown, NY 12165
> USA
> 518-392-4640 <(518)%20392-4640> <tel:%28518%29%20392-4640>
> colsen at taconic.net <mailto:colsen at taconic.net>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:53 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com
> <mailto:9watts at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Another related question:
> It seems that as with many products this market is rather
> unevenly stocked. Below 30" the choices shrink dramatically,
> and Energy Star models are (surprise!) clustered up in the
> pricey end of the spectrum.
>
> Are there perchance any small, reasonably priced, energy
> miserly vent hoods I haven't found? Of course, our kitchen
> stove is a mere 20" wide, so the narrower the better...
>
> For that matter, how complicated are these appliances? Can I
> buy the guts or a drop in unit out of which to make a DIY
> vent hood?
>
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org>
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/
> listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/
> listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org>
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/
> listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/
> listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org>
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.
> bioenergylists.org
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>
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> attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:34:19 -0500
> From: Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <info at ecobrooklyn.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Best House
> Message-ID:
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> I'm looking to buy some land in upstate NY and build ten cabins using the
> most cutting edge building techniques in the world.
> I'm thinking single rooms with a bathroom and a larger building for
> congregation.
>
> So.......what would these look like if they are to be the very best in
> green building. Or building in general....
>
> Would they be scattered around the land, bermed, a combination of earthship
> and passive house?
> For maximum efficiency would they be all together in one building with
> combined plumbing and sewer? I prefer the aesthetic that they be hidden in
> the countryside rather than one big visible building.......
>
> And to be truly cutting edge they need to improve on the way people
> interact. Is there a central meeting place with hall and dinning area? Or
> does each cabin have a kitchenette?
>
> Your thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
> Gennaro
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 09:45:53 -0800
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Best House
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceDVKBhLvkp38p0AAp9SZ24AEZkqdtdYDw71B4cKOMymCg at mail.gmail.com>
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>
> Those are a lot of questions, Gennaro. Sounds like a fun project. My only
> suggestion would be to install lots of meters up front so those who end up
> living there can track their usage (of water, electricity, etc.). Feedback
> of that sort is super important to realizing low impact living.
>
> I'm looking forward to Rob Tom's response (if he is still in the wings).
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 9:34 AM, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <
> info at ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:
>
> I'm looking to buy some land in upstate NY and build ten cabins using the
> most cutting edge building techniques in the world.
> I'm thinking single rooms with a bathroom and a larger building for
> congregation.
>
> So.......what would these look like if they are to be the very best in
> green building. Or building in general....
>
> Would they be scattered around the land, bermed, a combination of
> earthship and passive house?
> For maximum efficiency would they be all together in one building with
> combined plumbing and sewer? I prefer the aesthetic that they be hidden in
> the countryside rather than one big visible building.......
>
> And to be truly cutting edge they need to improve on the way people
> interact. Is there a central meeting place with hall and dinning area? Or
> does each cabin have a kitchenette?
>
> Your thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
> Gennaro
>
>
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