[Greenbuilding] Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9

Fri Jan 12 13:56:55 CST 2018

This is the kind of conversation I just wish was “out there” for anyone to see and not only for the group.  

I want more people to be able to be drawn in and to reply (though this group seems super qualified to answer a lot of these questions) and to be able to learn from what results. 

It’s not just about whether you/we can help each other - making these issues mainstream means making the information as accessible as possible for all.  

I just got contacted by a waterless urinal company from India - how do I help them engage in this conversation, and maybe offer their opinion, when there’s no online record?  I also know others in the business.  To get them to post, I am sure that some would like more people to be able to learn from the information.

Use my site, use any open site  - I just don’t think a listserv is the best way to do this.  But this conversation has also come up every few years.  All I can say is that I wish this group was interested in an alt format.  Many of you all DO make the time.  But your wisdom could be helping more people. 

This is a great topic…  Whatever the final answers are, there are more people out there with the question who aren’t going to see the conclusion. I really believe that this is important. 

Allison

Allison Friedman
Rate It Green
www.rateitgreen.com
@rateitgreen
@MAGreenbuilding

https://www.facebook.com/rateitgreen
https://www.linkedin.com/company/rate-it-green
https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisontfriedman/

On Jan 12, 2018, at 2:00 PM, greenbuilding-request at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Urine-diverting toilets Re: Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 89,
>      Issue 8 (Carol Steinfeld)
>   2. Re: Urine-diverting toilets Re: Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 89,
>      Issue 8 (Reuben Deumling)
>   3. Re: Urine-diverting toilets Re: Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 89,
>      Issue 8 (John Salmen)
>   4. Re: Urine-diverting toilets Re: Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 89,
>      Issue 8 (John Salmen)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 11:53:01 -0800
> From: Carol Steinfeld <carol at carol-steinfeld.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Urine-diverting toilets Re: Greenbuilding
> 	Digest, Vol 89, Issue 8
> Message-ID:
> 	<CALC0PhC9WQC0jv47V-7+P8FMXuq2M1xBb1m7rSA1BhqjgGRjuQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Reuben,
> Complaints about odor vary.
> We supplied our own tips with the toilets.
> Every time Del Porto or I would visit an odor situation, we'd find drainage
> (not enough slope) and/or air draw issues. (The best was publicly toured
> historic house that had the air intake for the HVAC system in the basement
> next to the big composting toilet composter.)
> 
> The Bullitt Foundation decided not to install a urine-diverting toilet
> because they decided to vent the bathroom through the solids/feces pipe to
> the composter. They knew this would draw odor from the urine line and the
> other toilet. Of course, there was a workaround for this, but they weren't
> motivated.)
> 
> We haven't had many folks complain about odor, so I think you're pulling a
> draw on the urine line. Or one of the other factors I listed is at play
> here such as not enough slope in your drainline.
> Did you say where the urine goes?
> 
> Also, urine sludges up pipes after awhile---this is well known with
> urinals---so it's worth blasting the hose periodically or replacing it.
> I do this for the high-capacity urine-div composting toilet at my friend's
> farm every year. Even I'm surprised by how much white sludge comes out of
> it. Young kidneys.
> 
> Most folks use the hose that came with the EcoDry, which is the same hose
> used for bilge tanks. It is not corrugated.
> 
> I'd guess about a third of owners use the urine-flush mechanism.
> 
> You can put a P-trap in the urine line. I'm not crazy about doing that with
> no-flush urine-div toilets.
> 
> I also tell folks to pour old coffee, tea, sugary drinks, etc. down the
> urine drain to give it an acid chaser.
> 
> The odor filter in the EcoFlush urine-diverting toilet is new. It's
> something else to maintain. I can pull one out and photograph it.
> 
> (Sven was an investor who said things like "when the U.S. market
> explodes"--even though urine diversion is still little known in Sweden. He
> took over when the sales manager died of a brain tumor. The current
> operators understand the nature of the market.)
> 
> Carol @ Ecovita
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 12:17:35 -0800
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Urine-diverting toilets Re: Greenbuilding
> 	Digest, Vol 89, Issue 8
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAE5fceCJnvf1=-qtmCKi+s4oA0cS8eVArNO81p0TK9VucNfC_A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Carol Steinfeld <carol at carol-steinfeld.com
>> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> We haven't had many folks complain about odor, so I think you're pulling a
>> draw on the urine line.
>> 
> 
> The seat & lid are always closed and are both gasketed, and we have from
> the very beginning placed a candle (stopper) into the hole through which
> the urine falls when the toilet is not in use as an extra precaution. With
> all these precautions, the pathway by which the urine odor reaches the
> noses in or near the bathroom has been somewhat baffling.
> 
> 
>> Or one of the other factors I listed is at play here such as not enough
>> slope in your drainline.
>> 
> 
> As I've now said several times, the line is v e r t i c a l. There is no
> part that could be steeper than vertical.
> 
> 
>> Did you say where the urine goes?
>> 
> 
> I did. Into a tin pail that sits outside in the fresh air. The toilet sits
> in a part of the house (second storey) that overhangs the first storey just
> enough to permit this setup.
> 
> 
>> it's worth blasting the hose periodically or replacing it.
>> 
> 
> I've thought about both of those. What would you 'blast' it with? As for
> replacing, access is not straightforward but of course this can be done.
> Copper was mentioned as a perhaps more satisfactory material. My concern is
> that the transition from porcelain toilet to whatever larger diameter pipe
> or hose comes next is going to involve edges, gaps, etc. that are not
> readily accessed, inspected, cleaned. That as you suggest might benefit
> from 'blasting,' but wouldn't be reached by any pressurized water following
> the path of the urine.
> 
> 
>> 
>> You can put a P-trap in the urine line. I'm not crazy about doing that
>> with no-flush urine-div toilets.
>> 
> 
> Me neither. Let's not go there just yet.
> 
>> 
>> I also tell folks to pour old coffee, tea, sugary drinks, etc. down the
>> urine drain to give it an acid chaser.
>> 
> 
> Intriguing. I am not sure I understand what you mean by acid chaser.
> 
>> 
>> The odor filter in the EcoFlush urine-diverting toilet is new. It's
>> something else to maintain. I can pull one out and photograph it.
>> 
> 
> The fact that an odor filter was invented/exists suggests to me that those
> who are having odor problems aren't just 'doing it wrong.'
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 14:25:32 -0800
> From: "John Salmen" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Urine-diverting toilets Re: Greenbuilding
> 	Digest, Vol 89, Issue 8
> Message-ID: <00b101d38b2b$1dc63560$5952a020$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> I think it does come down to cleaning and deodorizing. Anything acidic will neutralize to some degree so you could just make up a liquid/spray that gets used regularly or simply use a urinal screen which depending on the type will both neutralize and deodorize (there are some ?natural? ones and ones that utilize enzymes ). I like the ptrap and would keep it topped up with an enzyme solution ? as well as a screen.
> 
> 
> 
> From: Greenbuilding [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Reuben Deumling
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 12:18 PM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Urine-diverting toilets Re: Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 89, Issue 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Carol Steinfeld <carol at carol-steinfeld.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't had many folks complain about odor, so I think you're pulling a draw on the urine line. 
> 
> 
> 
> The seat & lid are always closed and are both gasketed, and we have from the very beginning placed a candle (stopper) into the hole through which the urine falls when the toilet is not in use as an extra precaution. With all these precautions, the pathway by which the urine odor reaches the noses in or near the bathroom has been somewhat baffling. 
> 
> 
> Or one of the other factors I listed is at play here such as not enough slope in your drainline. 
> 
> 
> 
> As I've now said several times, the line is v e r t i c a l. There is no part that could be steeper than vertical. 
> 
> 
> Did you say where the urine goes?
> 
> 
> 
> I did. Into a tin pail that sits outside in the fresh air. The toilet sits in a part of the house (second storey) that overhangs the first storey just enough to permit this setup.  
> 
> 
> 
> it's worth blasting the hose periodically or replacing it. 
> 
> 
> 
> I've thought about both of those. What would you 'blast' it with? As for replacing, access is not straightforward but of course this can be done. Copper was mentioned as a perhaps more satisfactory material. My concern is that the transition from porcelain toilet to whatever larger diameter pipe or hose comes next is going to involve edges, gaps, etc. that are not readily accessed, inspected, cleaned. That as you suggest might benefit from 'blasting,' but wouldn't be reached by any pressurized water following the path of the urine.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can put a P-trap in the urine line. I'm not crazy about doing that with no-flush urine-div toilets. 
> 
> 
> 
> Me neither. Let's not go there just yet.  
> 
> 
> 
> I also tell folks to pour old coffee, tea, sugary drinks, etc. down the urine drain to give it an acid chaser.
> 
> 
> 
> Intriguing. I am not sure I understand what you mean by acid chaser.  
> 
> 
> 
> The odor filter in the EcoFlush urine-diverting toilet is new. It's something else to maintain. I can pull one out and photograph it. 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that an odor filter was invented/exists suggests to me that those who are having odor problems aren't just 'doing it wrong.' 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 15:44:19 -0800
> From: "John Salmen" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Urine-diverting toilets Re: Greenbuilding
> 	Digest, Vol 89, Issue 8
> Message-ID: <00bc01d38b36$1f44be10$5dce3a30$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> I like this conversation ? have to say that composting toilets were the most challenging things to design. Fortunately the ones I did were custom so didn?t have to be made into a commodity- they only had to work. The biggest challenge was what to do with urine. Essentially it was the biggest potential polluter and creating a leach field for urine defeated the purpose. Employing electricity to dehydrate seemed also an oxymoron for something that was supposed to be both passive and conversing. Diverting captures limited flows and doesn?t really deal with it. What I wanted was a contained unit that dealt with both liquid and solids that didn?t have to be dealt with for at least 2 years.
> 
> 
> 
> The best design was similar to a pot boiler (a container within a container). The inside container was a large round commercial garbage container with a grid of racks every 4? ? the racks were 3/4? perforated pvc pipe and were drilled and connected through the side of the container (to allow air flow). The pipe was cross gridded to create 2? openings. The bottom of the container was also perforated to allow urine to collect in an outside container. The inside container was suspended over an insulated outside container (larger commercial garbage thing) which was connected to a 6? vent chimney.  The bottom of the outside container was plumbed to a hand pump ? located next to the toilet paper roll.
> 
> 
> 
> The idea was the moist feces and paper would collect on the first rack ? as it dried (with air flow from perforated and heat) and reduced in mass would tumble to the next. Operating the hand pump would send an aerated spray of urine over the racks which would reduce the urine volume through evaporation and effect some denitrification. The tumbling effect allowed for some active composting eventually settling at the bottom where it would then moulder. I put in twin containers ? one would fill up within roughly a year (was used for a rural commercial tai chi studio) and then the second was used leaving the first to moulder for a year at which point it was emptied (lifted out and emptied into an outdoor composting chamber where it would sit for another year before use). After use and emptying the containers were dry and well composted. The urine piping had a valve to switch between the two containers. The maintenance of having to empty a container every 2 years is a bit of a hassle but not bad. The large flue connection to the outer insulated container was extremely effective in ventilation so was one of the least smelly composters I?ve been around.
> 
> 
> 
> This was the only effective self contained composting toilet I managed to design and is still in use 15 years later. 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Greenbuilding [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Carol Steinfeld
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 11:53 AM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Urine-diverting toilets Re: Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 89, Issue 8
> 
> 
> 
> Reuben,
> 
> Complaints about odor vary. 
> 
> We supplied our own tips with the toilets.
> 
> Every time Del Porto or I would visit an odor situation, we'd find drainage (not enough slope) and/or air draw issues. (The best was publicly toured historic house that had the air intake for the HVAC system in the basement next to the big composting toilet composter.)
> 
> 
> 
> The Bullitt Foundation decided not to install a urine-diverting toilet because they decided to vent the bathroom through the solids/feces pipe to the composter. They knew this would draw odor from the urine line and the other toilet. Of course, there was a workaround for this, but they weren't motivated.)
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't had many folks complain about odor, so I think you're pulling a draw on the urine line. Or one of the other factors I listed is at play here such as not enough slope in your drainline. 
> 
> Did you say where the urine goes?
> 
> 
> 
> Also, urine sludges up pipes after awhile---this is well known with urinals---so it's worth blasting the hose periodically or replacing it. 
> 
> I do this for the high-capacity urine-div composting toilet at my friend's farm every year. Even I'm surprised by how much white sludge comes out of it. Young kidneys.
> 
> 
> 
> Most folks use the hose that came with the EcoDry, which is the same hose used for bilge tanks. It is not corrugated.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd guess about a third of owners use the urine-flush mechanism.
> 
> 
> 
> You can put a P-trap in the urine line. I'm not crazy about doing that with no-flush urine-div toilets. 
> 
> 
> 
> I also tell folks to pour old coffee, tea, sugary drinks, etc. down the urine drain to give it an acid chaser.
> 
> 
> 
> The odor filter in the EcoFlush urine-diverting toilet is new. It's something else to maintain. I can pull one out and photograph it. 
> 
> 
> 
> (Sven was an investor who said things like "when the U.S. market explodes"--even though urine diversion is still little known in Sweden. He took over when the sales manager died of a brain tumor. The current operators understand the nature of the market.)
> 
> Carol @ Ecovita
> 
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> 
> End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9
> ********************************************

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