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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Hi Thomas,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I love the suggestion of taping the seams and
taping the board to z bars. With the air leakage to the outside eliminated
that would bring us a lot closer to the r-10, and it would be a proper drainage
plane. My concerns are, what kind of tape and how does water escape if it
does get in? 2" of xps has permeance of .55. Will that allow
vapor to escape? What about bulk moisture? Behind the xps is a
liquid applied membrane that probably has a very low permeance, so it has to dry
to the outside. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Lastly, looking at the interior wall assembly, if
the open cell foam has a perm rating of 8, and 1" of polyiso has a perm of
2.33, this could be a well insulated wall and will still dry to the
inside. Right? Unless I'm missing something, we'd end up with
about an R30 wall. I'd be very happy with that. What do you
think? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thanks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>John</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=plea_4peace@yahoo.com href="mailto:plea_4peace@yahoo.com">Thomas
Lewis</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=John@fourpointscg.com
href="mailto:John@fourpointscg.com">J Messerschmidt</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 11, 2010 6:47
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulation
Problems</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<TD vAlign=top>" The bronze would be attached to the z
bars."<BR><BR>wait, is the cladding up? <BR>if not, be sure to
tape all seams and to the z bars, caulk small spaces and foam larger
ones.<BR>If it can be incorporated, use home slicker behind the cladding
with some screen wrapped around the edges that bugs could
enter.<BR><BR>"Time makes more converts than reason." Thomas Paine,
Common Sense<BR><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 11/10/10, J Messerschmidt
<I><John@fourpointscg.com></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From:
J Messerschmidt <John@fourpointscg.com><BR>Subject: Re:
[Greenbuilding] Insulation Problems<BR>To: "JOHN SALMEN"
<terrain@shaw.ca>, "'Greenbuilding'"
<greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Date: Wednesday,
November 10, 2010, 10:05 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=plainMail>John,<BR>Thanks to your excellent feedback
and others, I can be more specific and narrow down the
solutions. The Dow insulation is the blue board. The
liquid coating is yellow and I don't know what that is. The
insulation, stated as r-10 is not continuous as it is cut every 24" by
the continuous z bars running horizontally across the all the exterior
walls. Yes, there are small gaps wherever the foam board butts up
against the z bar, and where wherever there are seams. The foam
board is attached to the sheathing with nails and huge washers.
The bronze would be attached to the z bars. Apparently, a drainage
plane was not intentionally planned when they designed it, but vapor
and bulk moisture can eventually find its way out, -and not in- to the
wall assembly. Not the ideal scenario, but nothing to worry
about. What I'm getting here is that the r-10 is in reality an
r-0 or something close to that.<BR><BR>For the interior, I understand
that the open cell could give us a whole wall r-value of about 15 and
the 1" eps could add another 4 without fear of moisture being trapped,
and not counting any windows. The main benefit here would be to
stop air infiltration inside the wall cavity.<BR><BR>Would this
statement be accurate?<BR><BR>We are adding HRV and the A/C will most
likely be on during the summer, barring any vacations etc. Oh
yeah, it's not in Queens, it's actually Brooklyn. Being a snobby
Manhattanite, I've never felt it necessary to cross the East River, so
it's like a foreign country to me. Thank God they speak
English.<BR><BR><BR>John<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----
From: "JOHN SALMEN" <<A href="/mc/compose?to=terrain@shaw.ca"
ymailto="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca">terrain@shaw.ca</A>><BR>To: "'J
Messerschmidt'" <<A href="/mc/compose?to=John@fourpointscg.com"
ymailto="mailto:John@fourpointscg.com">John@fourpointscg.com</A>>;
"'Greenbuilding'" <<A
href="/mc/compose?to=greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org"
ymailto="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org">greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Wednesday, November 10, 2010 2:27 AM<BR>Subject: RE: [Greenbuilding]
Insulation Problems<BR><BR><BR>> Bit confusing. Lot of different
wall assemblies out there.<BR>> <BR>> The 2 inches of xps would
be classed as semi-impermeable something around .5<BR>>
perm.<BR>> The liquid coating on the sheathing is probably
comparable and the ply would<BR>> be at about 1 perm.<BR>>
<BR>> So drying to the exterior is fairly limited. Recommendations
for colder<BR>> climates because of interior humidity would be to
have more permeable<BR>> materials to the exterior but the real
issues are moisture tolerance of<BR>> materials and moisture -
sources of moisture and potential for drying.<BR>> <BR>> The ply
is good in that it can be subject to extreme moisture loading
and<BR>> dry out if it has the opportunity. Framing less
so.<BR>> <BR>> Open cell foam in the interior cavity would have
a high perm rating (about 8<BR>> for the 6"?). A 1" interior eps
board would be about 5 perm. So the wall is<BR>> basically drying
to the interior.<BR>> <BR>> Interior moisture is then the issue
as well as all the worpersonlike details<BR>> that will prevent
moisture from getting in over x number of years. Using a<BR>> spray
foam is pretty affective for an air barrier and an interior
board<BR>> allows you to potentially create an even better air
barrier with decent perm<BR>> (than trying to seal studs or gaps in
the spray foam) to limit moisture<BR>> laden air if detailed
properly...<BR>> <BR>> Next issue and probably the most
important one would be interior<BR>> ventilation/dehumidification
if the wall is to dry to the interior. I<BR>> remember it gets
pretty muggy in queens. I modelled a similar wall with high<BR>>
interior humidity levels and it didn't look good.<BR>> <BR>> As
for drainage plane and thermal values. The cladding I'm assuming
mounts<BR>> to the horizontal z clips and there is probably some
small gap between the<BR>> panels and the foam and between the foam
and the gooped pywood and that<BR>> probably be sufficient as I
can't see any materials being compromised other<BR>> than the metal
clips (if they are clips and not a continuous z bar). If the<BR>>
clips corrode the panels fall off.<BR>> <BR>> I would include
the 2" of foam in the thermal (what else is it doing?). Hard<BR>>
to calculate the bridging from the clips and I don't think leeds is
that<BR>> critical at this point.<BR>> <BR>> I think the 1"
interior if done in eps would be very useful for bridging<BR>>
thermal gaps adding significantly to the thermal value - and
completing a<BR>> sealed interior as an air barrier if done
well.<BR>> <BR>> I have to say I am personally getting more fond
of chopped straw and mud - a<BR>> little more physical activity and
fewer spreadsheets and when it fails you<BR>> just have a bunch of
mud and straw.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> JOHN SALMEN
ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN<BR>> 4465 UPHILL RD,. DUNCAN, B.C.
CANADA, V9L 6M7<BR>> PH 250 748 7672 FAX 250 748 7612 CELL 250 246
8541<BR>> <A href="/mc/compose?to=terrain@shaw.ca"
ymailto="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca">terrain@shaw.ca</A><BR>>
<BR>>>>
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