<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Ventilation rates are not set based on the physiology of O2 requirements as there is a lot of O2 available in the air as John states The rise of CO2 is more of an issue, but submariners regularily spend months at around 5000 ppm, whereas we usually ventilate to 1000-1200 ppm (2 to 3 times outdoor levels). Of course, most IAQ issues are not related to either O2 or CO2, but CO2 is a good indicator of general ventilation quality as a function of human occupancy.<div>ASHRAE standards have historically been set based on early research around odour: it is human smells that set the ventilation rates. Depending on culture and time, these rates have, under ASHRAE's guidelines, varied from about 3 cfm to 30 cfm of fresh air per person.</div><div>If a building is ventilated to 1000 ppm, this is about equal to 15 cfm per person. 800 ppm is about 20 cfm.</div><div>Current residential ventilation rates by ASHRAE are 7.5 cfm/person + 0.01 cfm/square foot. This has worked rather well, as IAQ problems never crop up when this ventilation is actually delivered, and the building is not too polluting. Increasingly the problems of ventilation are 1. the ventilation is not delivered and 2. the building or outdoor air supply is the source of the pollutant.</div><div>In the old days, 1. was a problem in commercial buildings because a ventilation system was not installed or fresh air was not delivered to the building. Today I find the problem is that the ventilation system does not actually deliver fresh air to the space where people are reliably. VAV systems in commercial buildings are particularly bad. The response to these problems has been to increase base level ventilation rates rather than fix the problem with ventilation systems. For example, in a hydronic heating system with an exhaust fan acting as the ventilation system, bedrooms often dont get ventilation air if they have their door closed (not uncommon in master bedrooms). Hence people think they are ventilating when in fact the fresh air being brought in (and heated) is not being delivered to that room. A fresh air supply to each room (via a duct or via an air handling system with a FanCycler controller) provides assurance that every room gets ventilation.</div><div>The ventilation rate of 0.01 cfm/sf explicitly recognizes that buildings, not just people, generate pollutants. Lots of off-gasing in new buildings, but once past the first year or so, things like pets, cleaning chemicals, or moldy buildings are more likely. You can control this ventilation rate requirement by how you build. Many houses might require a higher rate because of the way they are built. Some might require less per sf. Of course, in commercial spaces we often find a problem that the ventilation intake is from the loading dock, or next to the dumpster, or 8" above the black tar roof exposed to sun:)</div><div><br></div><div>My experience is that if you ventilate reliably to every space, during all hours, there are no problems. the rate is not the issue, although of course it must reasonable. the problems come from not actually delivering ventilation air to each space under all weather and operating conditions.</div><div><br></div><div>John</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 2010-12-12, at 10:31 PM, JOHN SALMEN wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region">
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<div class="Section1"><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Sorry Stephen – I know you know all
that stuff, I liked the question and was thinking out loud and still thinking
out loud. One of the interesting things for me is that when someone is cyanotic
or hypoxic in a medical situation it is pretty apparent. Basically co2 drives
our breathing as we eliminate it. Chronic high(er) levels of co2 in our built
environment may be an issue. It would never be the case that there was not
sufficient oxygen – more that the body becomes less able to utilize the
oxygen as it becomes less able to eliminate co2 or other mixtures of gases. So
we end up with chronic problems.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">That is one thought and then a companion
thought is that co2 is used as an indicator – if it is present at higher
levels then other gases are so is a broad measuring tool for IAQ and these
gases interact. I think we are allowed approximately double the exterior co2
level for indoor environments. Perhaps that is too high for an aging or health
compromised population. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Increasingly I think ventilation rates are
too low (and people spend too much time indoors but ironically not that much
time in their houses). Are we heating and ventilating houses far too much when
are unoccupied and then ventilating sufficiently for when they are? How well is
demand controlled ventilation actually working?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thanks for the question – has me
scratching my head as well.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">John<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div><p class="MsoAutoSig"><u><font size="3" color="green" face="Gill Sans MT"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans MT";color:green">JOHN SALMEN
ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN<o:p></o:p></span></font></u></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><i><font size="2" color="black" face="Gill Sans MT"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Gill Sans MT";color:black;font-style:italic">4465 UPHILL RD</span></font></i></st1:address></st1:street><i><font size="2" color="black" face="Gill Sans MT"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Gill Sans MT";color:black;font-style:italic">,. <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">DUNCAN</st1:place></st1:city>, B.C. <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">CANADA</st1:place></st1:country-region>, V9L 6M7<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><i><font size="2" color="black" face="Gill Sans MT"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans MT";color:black;font-style:italic">PH
250 748 7672 FAX 250 748 7612 CELL 250 246 8541<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><i><font size="2" color="black" face="Gill Sans MT"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans MT";color:black;font-style:italic"><a href="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca">terrain@shaw.ca</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">
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</span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">
Stephen Collette [mailto:stephen@yourhealthyhouse.ca] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> December 12, 2010 4:44 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> JOHN SALMEN<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Stale Air</span></font><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Thanks for your thoughts John. I am wondering how useful the
measurement of CO2 in homes is. I have a CO meter and pull it out on occasion
and to my memory have not found anything with it in a home. Typically with a
couple of people or small family in a single family dwelling, I wonder whether
they alone could ever get the levels up to something dangerous? Now blended
families or extended families all living under one roof, I think that may be
possible. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">I'm not disagreeing with you at all, what you are saying is what I talk
about too, but again, is it actually valid? I don't know, and hence the head
scratching. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Grateful for your time thinking about this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Stephen<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Stephen Collette
BBEC, LEED AP, BSSO<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><a href="mailto:stephen@yourhealthyhouse.ca">stephen@yourhealthyhouse.ca</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">705.652.5159<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite"><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region"><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="Street"><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="address">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue" style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi,<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">There are a lot of adjectives for air
– stale, stagnant, dead, fetid…<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Air basically means for us oxygen as a
requirement – so stale air could simply be oxygen poor air.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">With ashrae I guess there is adequate
ventilation and inadequate ventilation and stale would be an excess of unventilated
air (stale??). Ashrae uses co2 concentrations as the indicator for adequate
ventilation so there definition is ppm for various uses.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">In emergency first aid I measure
ventilation rates, blood oxygen levels as well of level of consciousness
– all of which could reveal an emergency condition in students in a
classroom at the end of a day subject to averaged ventilation and subsequent
‘stale’ air. Tidal volume (breath) is about 500ml with about 14%
oxygen and 4.4% co2 exhaled – outside air is about 21% oxygen and .04%
co2. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">So a significant amount of c02 is released
on each breath in comparison to the intake – so we could say that
‘stale air’ is any air exhaled.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Fun question.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">John<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
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12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div>John Straube</div><div><a href="http://www.BuildingScience.com">www.BuildingScience.com</a></div><div><br></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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