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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Thanks
for the responses for <FONT size=1><FONT size=3><EM>Max Temp Storage Water
Heaters+TemperatureSensors</EM></FONT></P></FONT><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Steve
Satow writes:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Eli,
this begs the question: if you are already replacing the water heater, why not
get an on-demand electric tankless system that supplies water to the bathroom
only when you want it? More compact than any tank so you can put it
somewhere convenient and it would eliminate virtually all the unavoidable
standby losses associated with a tank?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">My
response<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">I
reviewed your suggestion for online electric on demand tankless systems.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We are on the same concept of heating
the water when it is needed instead of storing it with standby heat losses.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Instantaneous heater with a low flow
shower is likely the most efficient way to go.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, I am not ready to give up my
hot bath.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I found a range of amp
size water heaters for Rheme as a representative of the performance I can
expect.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><A
href="http://globalimageserver.com/fetchDocument.aspx?id=b125d219-d5f8-46c3-ab02-5934e3043c7d"><FONT
color=#800080>http://globalimageserver.com/fetchDocument.aspx?id=b125d219-d5f8-46c3-ab02-5934e3043c7d</FONT></A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">The
limitation is how much the water temperature will be raised above the starting
temperature at various flow rates.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>If starting at a ground temperature of 55F it would take a rise of 55F to
achieve 110F bath.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>2.1gpm for RTE
Model 13 will raise 50F.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The unit
requires a 240v at 60amp breaker.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>This could work if I was building a new house.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, I have recently removed a heat
pump, making two wires already wired to breaker box available for new
service.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Installing a new line to
breaker box is a significant increase of effort.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I would like to use a 30amp (old
compressor) or 50amp circuit (old air handler with heat element backup).<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The preference is for use of 30amp wire
that can reach the new location next to tub.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I want to use 50amp circuit for new
breaker box for potential expansion.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>However, with a junction box, I could use that wire.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">My
intention is to heat the water when it is needed, and not store hot water that
has to be reheated.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Instantaneous
heaters fit this concept.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Perhaps
water could be stored in a un-insulated tank that would be warmed from 55F to
room temperature of 70F.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That would
then only require a boost of 40F to achieve 110F.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>RTE9 (220v x 40amp) can achieve this
with 2.2gpm flow.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In this case the
tank would not be insulated at all to use the room to preheat the tank.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Make no mistake, this will take heat
away from the room that must be made up by the air heating system.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If heating with a heat pump, this has
COP of that system.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Currently we
are primarily using wood heat.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I am
uncertain of the recovery rate would be for this preheat tank.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">On
this list I here that heat losses from tank or other appliances are captured as
a benefit for heating the house in the winter.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is only a COP of 1kwh heat for 1kwh
electric consumption. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This list
knows that electricity generally takes about 3kwh of fuel to deliver one
kwh.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This limited benefit for heat
loss only applies in the winter.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In
the summer the hot water heat loss is a double liability.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If the house is cooled in the summer,
the cost of removing that heat loss is more than a kwh/kwh heat loss.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In my case, since I removed the heat
pump, it is not energy consumption, it is comfort.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If I am replacing<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>room temperature water 70F with ground
temperature water of 55F, it will have a slight cooling benefit for comfort in
the summer.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">However,
the main concept is to heat water up when needed and to not store it.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In our current hot water tank location,
we are serving the kitchen and the bathroom that are separated by about
30’.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The tank is immediately over
the kitchen sink.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We would
sometimes allow the water to reheat while we took our bath.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>As is pointed out, the savings from the
gradual lowering of temperature may be negligible.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, if that stored water is
consumed in the kitchen, then the heat loss is completely halted.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In fact when ground temp water replaces
the consumed hot water, the heat flow reverses direction.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is a preheat before switching
heater back on.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This allowed us
some water for kitchen consumption.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Our
current approach is to separate the kitchen and bath to produce hot water in
those locations only when needed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I
do not consider a slight delay at time of use to be an extreme hardship.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We will heat up water for tea or coffee
at the time of use instead of storing continuously reheated water.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I think the instantaneous heater would
work well in the kitchen.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We
currently use a basin instead of the full kitchen sink which reduces the total
water needed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I am considering
plumbing a really small un-insulated tank (1/2gal) with no intentions of storage
to be heated by a induction stove top.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>In this way, I can within a few minutes have adequate warm water for sink
basin for dish washing water.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>While
washing the dishes in basin, the heater can be quickly be re heating up the next
batch for rinsing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In this way, we
are continually resupplied with hot water until we are done.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Then the induction stove top is switched
off and the small tank returns to room temperature waiting for its next use with
no standby heat losses.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> Until I can get
something like that together, </SPAN>I am not averse to setting the basin of
water on our current induction stove top to heat the water.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I have this list to thank for making me
aware of this great fast heating, efficient and very responsive technology.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">The
instantaneous heaters can do this also.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>However to be instantaneous requires a larger wire.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Using an induction stove or possibly a
microwave (if someone can work through those issues) to heat water on demand but
not instantaneously, allows for a simple 120v receptacle to meet the need.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This greatly increases the flexibility
to heat water at many locations.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>This also avoids the heat losses from long pipes that connect one central
heater serving the whole house.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">For
us, the bathtub is the most demanding hot water use.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Perhaps the hot water of a 30amp 220
volt instantaneous heater for hot bath could be boosted to desired temperature
by a circulating water heater such as a whirlpool.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is there such a product for heating
water in an open pool such as a tub?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>This would allow for mixing of creek water to supplement cistern water
during draughts.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Could this
possibly be an alternative to pressurized water heater for
bathing?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Long
story short, heat only the quantity water needed at the location when it is
needed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">Again, thanks for input. I hope for more
feedback. </SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Eli
<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>