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You can get tankless heaters that run on 40 amps, certainly on 50, which will give you a hot shower. <div>Even better if you can pre-warm the water 10, 15* with a tank in a warm basement.<br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div>Clarke Olsen</div><div>373 route 203</div><div>Spencertown, NY 12165 </div><div>USA</div><div>518-392-4640</div><div><a href="mailto:colsen@fairpoint.net">colsen@fairpoint.net</a></div><div><br></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span> </div><br><div><div>On Feb 9, 2011, at 11:26 PM, elitalking wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Thanks for the responses for <font size="1"><font size="3"><em>Max Temp Storage Water Heaters+TemperatureSensors</em></font></font></span></div><font size="1"></font><o:p></o:p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Steve Satow writes:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Eli, this begs the question: if you are already replacing the water heater, why not get an on-demand electric tankless system that supplies water to the bathroom only when you want it? More compact than any tank so you can put it somewhere convenient and it would eliminate virtually all the unavoidable standby losses associated with a tank?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">My response<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">I reviewed your suggestion for online electric on demand tankless systems.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>We are on the same concept of heating the water when it is needed instead of storing it with standby heat losses.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Instantaneous heater with a low flow shower is likely the most efficient way to go.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>However, I am not ready to give up my hot bath.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I found a range of amp size water heaters for Rheme as a representative of the performance I can expect.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><a href="http://globalimageserver.com/fetchDocument.aspx?id=b125d219-d5f8-46c3-ab02-5934e3043c7d"><font color="#800080">http://globalimageserver.com/fetchDocument.aspx?id=b125d219-d5f8-46c3-ab02-5934e3043c7d</font></a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">The limitation is how much the water temperature will be raised above the starting temperature at various flow rates.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>If starting at a ground temperature of 55F it would take a rise of 55F to achieve 110F bath.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>2.1gpm for RTE Model 13 will raise 50F.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>The unit requires a 240v at 60amp breaker.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This could work if I was building a new house.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>However, I have recently removed a heat pump, making two wires already wired to breaker box available for new service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Installing a new line to breaker box is a significant increase of effort.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I would like to use a 30amp (old compressor) or 50amp circuit (old air handler with heat element backup).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>The preference is for use of 30amp wire that can reach the new location next to tub.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I want to use 50amp circuit for new breaker box for potential expansion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>However, with a junction box, I could use that wire.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">My intention is to heat the water when it is needed, and not store hot water that has to be reheated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Instantaneous heaters fit this concept.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Perhaps water could be stored in a un-insulated tank that would be warmed from 55F to room temperature of 70F.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>That would then only require a boost of 40F to achieve 110F.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>RTE9 (220v x 40amp) can achieve this with 2.2gpm flow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>In this case the tank would not be insulated at all to use the room to preheat the tank.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Make no mistake, this will take heat away from the room that must be made up by the air heating system.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>If heating with a heat pump, this has COP of that system.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Currently we are primarily using wood heat.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I am uncertain of the recovery rate would be for this preheat tank.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">On this list I here that heat losses from tank or other appliances are captured as a benefit for heating the house in the winter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This is only a COP of 1kwh heat for 1kwh electric consumption. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This list knows that electricity generally takes about 3kwh of fuel to deliver one kwh.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This limited benefit for heat loss only applies in the winter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>In the summer the hot water heat loss is a double liability.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>If the house is cooled in the summer, the cost of removing that heat loss is more than a kwh/kwh heat loss.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>In my case, since I removed the heat pump, it is not energy consumption, it is comfort.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>If I am replacing<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>room temperature water 70F with ground temperature water of 55F, it will have a slight cooling benefit for comfort in the summer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">However, the main concept is to heat water up when needed and to not store it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>In our current hot water tank location, we are serving the kitchen and the bathroom that are separated by about 30’.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>The tank is immediately over the kitchen sink.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>We would sometimes allow the water to reheat while we took our bath.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>As is pointed out, the savings from the gradual lowering of temperature may be negligible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>However, if that stored water is consumed in the kitchen, then the heat loss is completely halted.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>In fact when ground temp water replaces the consumed hot water, the heat flow reverses direction.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This is a preheat before switching heater back on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This allowed us some water for kitchen consumption.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Our current approach is to separate the kitchen and bath to produce hot water in those locations only when needed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I do not consider a slight delay at time of use to be an extreme hardship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>We will heat up water for tea or coffee at the time of use instead of storing continuously reheated water.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I think the instantaneous heater would work well in the kitchen.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>We currently use a basin instead of the full kitchen sink which reduces the total water needed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I am considering plumbing a really small un-insulated tank (1/2gal) with no intentions of storage to be heated by a induction stove top.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>In this way, I can within a few minutes have adequate warm water for sink basin for dish washing water.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>While washing the dishes in basin, the heater can be quickly be re heating up the next batch for rinsing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>In this way, we are continually resupplied with hot water until we are done.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Then the induction stove top is switched off and the small tank returns to room temperature waiting for its next use with no standby heat losses.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> Until I can get something like that together, </span>I am not averse to setting the basin of water on our current induction stove top to heat the water.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I have this list to thank for making me aware of this great fast heating, efficient and very responsive technology. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">The instantaneous heaters can do this also.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>However to be instantaneous requires a larger wire.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Using an induction stove or possibly a microwave (if someone can work through those issues) to heat water on demand but not instantaneously, allows for a simple 120v receptacle to meet the need.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This greatly increases the flexibility to heat water at many locations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This also avoids the heat losses from long pipes that connect one central heater serving the whole house.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">For us, the bathtub is the most demanding hot water use.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Perhaps the hot water of a 30amp 220 volt instantaneous heater for hot bath could be boosted to desired temperature by a circulating water heater such as a whirlpool.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Is there such a product for heating water in an open pool such as a tub?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This would allow for mixing of creek water to supplement cistern water during draughts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Could this possibly be an alternative to pressurized water heater for bathing?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Long story short, heat only the quantity water needed at the location when it is needed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span></div><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"></span></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">Again, thanks for input. I hope for more feedback. </span></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Eli <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Greenbuilding mailing list</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></div> </blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>