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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hello John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I replaced a Weil-Mclain CGA-4 boiler (77000 BTU gas boiler) that was only 10 years old in CHICAGO in JANUARY. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The HVAC contractor who installed the boiler 10 years ago said that the chimney was not venting properly (<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Maybe debris) and caused the boiler to build-up carbon in the combustion chamber therefore rendering it<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Irreparable. He wanted $4700 to replace with a higher efficiency Weil -Mclain boiler that he would not have to fix<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The chimney venting problem because he could vent directly out the side of building. I did not feel comfortable<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Giving the same contractor another $4700 to install another boiler when the first one should have lasted 25 to 30 years.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The building is a 1910 brick “2 flat” rental property consisting of 2 small apartments (700sq. ft each) with unevenly heated cast iron radiators. This boiler was used to heat both apartments.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>To make a long story short … I decided to determine what the actual problem was and proceeded to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Diagnose and solve the problem myself. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My conclusion: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The chimney was not clogged however one side faced the arctic cold<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Of Chicago and therefore caused condensation buildup inside the chimney because the air cooled off before<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Exiting out the top of chimney . The condensation ran down the chimney into the boiler vent pipe and into the boiler. This is what caused the boiler to fail early … 10 years of condensation <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dripping down into the boiler eventually causing a carbon/rust buildup and also rusting out the bottom half of the boiler. This was one source of condensation. The installation manual recommends a vertical and horizontal drip vent<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Installed to eliminate this issues. This was not done in the original installation. If my conclusion is incorrect I welcome anyone on the list to help me understand the error in this conclusion? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>After talking to Weil-Mclain support engineers they confirmed another source of condensation within the boiler.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And that would be low temperature return water coming back into boiler causing condensation. This is corrected<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>With primary / secondary bypass piping that was not done in the original installation. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Important Considerations that I learned the hard way in a cold snowy Chicago 2011 winter in a cold apartment with very patient cold tenants.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> #1. 30 year supply house veteran who helped me diagnose issues said his experience is “Most<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Boilers are not installed correctly”. (Scary and I hope he is wrong.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>#2. Sizing of boiler should be calculated with an estimate of Heating load. This would include an accurate assessment of building parameters and radiator sizing. See attached installation guide. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>#3. Venting calculation is very important using venting tables based on configuration of boiler location, chimney<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And relative locations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As to your thoughts on a better solution for the same price … <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Some ideas maybe worth pursuing ?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Recently someone posted an idea about solar preheating to a boiler (maybe too expensive). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Convert to gas and use a tankless boiler. (Does anyone on list have experience with this technology?)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>John … If interested I can send you documents related to my research and installation of a Weil-Mclain (CGA-3 50000BTU) used for one of the 700 SF apartments. Works fine in Chicago. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Bob Jakaitis aka "Jake" <br>NC General Contractor | B.S.E.E. Illinois Institue of Technology<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Air Sealing and Energy Saving Services<br>Jake at the Lake Development Inc.<br>Tel: 704-236-3574<br>Email: jake@jakeatthelake.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Beeson - Sunny Side Up<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:13 PM<br><b>To:</b> greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Greenbuilding] a better boiler<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi all,<br><br>I have a friend that wants to replace her 30+yr old oil-based boiler for a Weil Mclain WTGO-5. I feel like there has GOT to be something better for about the same price.<br><br>Anyone have any thoughts that want to share?<br><br>I'm at a loss as to knowing if this piece of equipment is oversized or undersized without really getting into it, but I figured I'd ask this group for pointers...<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>John<br><br> </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier'>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br> / \ John E. Beeson, AIA, NCARB, LEED AP BD+C<br> || * * || 512 Hiscock St.<br> ||| + ||| Ann Arbor, MI 48103<br> || \__*__/ || 734.994.3506<br> || || e-mails:emailme0617@yahoo.com<br> ||| Scream ||| betterEnvironment@yahoo.com<br> powerofsun.johnbeeson@gmail.com<br><br>"There's a fine line between standing on the shore fishing and looking like an idiot" - Dave Barry<br><br>"But if we are designing new buildings in new ways, why shouldn’t we preserve old buildings in new ways as well?" - Blair Kamin</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier'><br></span><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Courier'>"T</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier'>he road to energy independence, economic recovery and reductions in greenhouse gas emissions runs through the Building Sector." -</span><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Courier'> Edward Mazria</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier'><br>"Sustainability is like teenage sex. Everybody says they're doing it, very few people actually are doing it. Those that are doing it are doing it badly." -Aussie architect Andrew Maynard</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>