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<DIV>I think you can get the same effect, for a lot less money, by simply
installing a regular tank electric water heater and putting an on-off switch on
it, and be frugal in your use of hot water. (We are the masters of the
three minute shower.) When our tank has cooled to ambient, and I
flip the switch, within about 10 minutes I get a stream of hot water at the tub
or the kitchen sink.</DIV>
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<DIV>Bob Waldrop, Okie City</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=steve@tjiang.org
href="mailto:steve@tjiang.org">Steven Tjiang</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:27 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org">Green Building</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Opinions on electric tankless HW
heaters?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Depending
on the source of generation, heat pump water heaters have roughly the same
carbon footprint as gas water heater. However if you power using
electricity from renewables (wind) HPWH is significantly better. My local
utility offers the wind option, so I went with the HPWH with solar
preheat. Even if one were to use a Drain heat recovery, HPWH is still the
best alternative.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Having said that, demand reduction still comes first.<BR>
<DIV><BR clear=all>---- Steve (KZ6LSD)<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Frank Tettemer <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:frank@livingsol.com">frank@livingsol.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Hi All,<BR><BR>I can't vouch for Nick's idea that they only
manufacture 13KW tank-less hot water heaters. I think that the
manufacturers would certainly provide electric tank-less heaters of all
electrical load sizes, simply because there would be a demand for lighter-duty
models, and Somebody is going to fill that market. However,<BR><BR>That
doesn't mean that a light-weight tank-less heater would provide a satisfactory
supply of hot water. And certainly anyone who has traveled South of the
border, to various Carribean countries has experienced those light-duty
electric shower heaters, plugged into an overhead electrical recepticle, just
out of reach of the shower curtain. (I'm not promoting these models for
US or Can. use, however.)<BR><BR>What I do think is entirely wrong,<BR>is the
idea that an electric hot water heater, of any make or model, could possibly
be considered environmentally friendly. It's just way too big of a
stretch in reality.<BR><BR>Consider that a typical household of four would
probably spend about $30 to $40 per month on heating hot water. Either
system, tank-less or tank.<BR>This is equal to about 400 Kwh, at the
household's electrical meter base.<BR>This is also equal to about 1,300 Kwh of
comparable fuel, being burnt at the coal plant, or nuked at the nuke
plant.<BR>(As we know, the accumulated losses, from conversion of fuel to
heat, conversion of heat to steam, conversion of steam to rotary motion,
conversion of motion to electrical current, and line losses from transmission
all add up to a factor of about 3.25 to 1. This is a phenomena that is
hard to accept, but even more impossible to ignore, while designing
appropriate technologies in an energy efficient home.<BR><BR>Yes, Carmine, if
we only look at the almighty dollar, and compare costs of various methods of
heating domestic hot water, or heating hot water for distribution into
household heating, the electric devices all end up costing less to purchase
and to operate, in the initial assessment.<BR><BR>Giving regard to overall
embodied energy of construction of the domestic hot water system, and
associated energy of electrical production and transmission over a decade or
two, however, the question arises as to how this all pans out over the coming
decade or two. Looking at a comparison of economics, via using the
dollar as the unit of measure is way too short-sighted. It is misleading and
hides the truth.<BR><BR>In my humble opinion, and in my home design practice,
I have not specified any greater electrical use in a home that can be produced
near to the location of the home. As well, the PV array and/or wind
turbine associated with the home's electrical production really must be capped
at a small enough investment, (both dollars and embodied energy), that this
system is also not a burden to the planet. In other words, designing a
10KW PV system, plus a 10Kw wind turbine, for one single household, is to me a
pathetically privileged idea, and un-necessary exhibition of wealth, and
simply represents a too large footprint. I have built many homes over
the years, on of off grid, that operate on 3 to 5 Kwh per day, total
electrical loads, simply to avoid the burden to the grid and to the planet in
general.<BR><BR>If the average Canadian household uses 29 to 32 Kwh per day,
then a home that uses only 5 Kwh per day is living more lightly. And
this difference, when converted to fuel consumption for the electricity used,
represents over 2,000 units of fuel equivalency.<BR>This represents a savings
upon the grid, and lightens it's load.<BR><BR>Nearly any other fuel will have
a lighter impact than electricity for hot water. And I'm not even taking
nuke meltdowns, like in Japan, into the equation. If we add that level
of environmental toxicity to the balance sheet, avoiding electrical on-demand
hot water heaters is a no brainer.<BR><BR>If we are serious about discussing
economic and environmental waste, let's first consider simply living with less
expectations, way less over-all consumption of all goods, accepting and
surrendering to the uncomfortable fact that this planet cannot support our
North American "needs" any longer, without these "needs" being clearly labeled
as privilege and greed.<BR><BR>I believe that it is misleading people with
advice that switching from one fossil fuel to another is going to "improve"
the environment. There is no "better" fossil fuel, just as there is no
better way to continue to consume goods at the rate of most middle class
households.<BR><BR>Our best fuel is a leap of faith around finding that living
with way less is way better.<BR><BR>Frank Tettemer<BR><BR>Frank
Tettemer<BR>Living Sol ~ Building and Design<BR><A
href="http://www.livingsol.com" target=_blank>www.livingsol.com</A><BR><A
href="tel:613%20756%203884" target=_blank value="+16137563884">613 756
3884</A><BR><BR>.............................................................................................................................................<BR>Nick:
Please stop misleading people with your erroneous advice. We all know your
prejudice against both tank-less heaters & tank-less drain water heat
recovery systems that can deliver Energy Factors well above that offered by
the kinds of water heaters you promote.<BR>Carmine<BR><A
href="http://gfxechnology.com"
target=_blank>gfxechnology.com</A><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>From:
<A href="mailto:npyner@tig.com.au" target=_blank>npyner@tig.com.au</A><BR>To:
<A href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>Date: Tue, 19 Apr
2011 09:37:24 +1000<BR>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Opinions on electric
tankless HW heaters?<BR><BR>Instant electric is usually the last choice on
economic and environmental grounds.<BR>I doubt that Rheem would make them.
Another manufacturer that does is Stiebel Eltron. They have some pretty
sophisticated models but they are expensive and probably no more efficient
than their simpler ones.<BR>Even a small instant electric will take about
13kW, so retrofitting one may call for some expensive wiring.<BR><BR>Nick
Pyner<BR><BR>Dee Why NSW<BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>*On
Behalf Of *Matt<BR><BR>I have clients who might be ideal candidates for a
tankless hw heater. They don't have natural gas in their home. I have
installed gas tankless, but don't have any experience with electric tankless
heaters. I will need to size one for a family of two to four.<BR><BR>Any
opinions out there? Bosch? Rinnai? Rheem?...<BR><BR>--
<BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Greenbuilding
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