This is getting off-topic.<div><br></div><div>After many years I learn to pick my battles at home. I won the "hanging up the laundry on a clothesline" battle which will save more energy than some other possible behavior modifications.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But generally....we need to learn to pick our battles when it comes to saving energy as a society. Hot water systems that saves energy and provide the same level of comfort w/o user intervention will get wider adoption and hence ultimately save more energy in total, than something that might individually save more energy but receive little adoption.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Having said that I'm going to bike to work now.</div><div><br></div><div>P.S. But Bob I admire your dedication to turning your hot water heater off and on. I would do likewise if I could.</div><div>
<br></div><div><div>---- Steve (KZ6LSD)<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Bob Waldrop <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bwaldrop@cox.net">bwaldrop@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:'Arial';color:#000000;font-size:12pt">
<div>It is true that I am a confirmed bachelor, and that in fact people often
tell me, “Bob, if you had a wife, she would not let you do that,” (“that” being
whatever my latest low tech red neck energy conservation scheme might be.)
Having said that, it does take some amount of internal discipline to remember to
turn the switch OFF once it has been turned on, and also to not necessarily turn
it ON every time you need hot water, this is true for both males and
females. Over the last six years, various roommates have come and gone
(the population here waxes and wanes between 2 and 6), and each time with the
newbies there is a bump up in consumption for a couple of months while they get
used to the drill. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bob Waldrop, OKC</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;display:inline;font-family:'Calibri';color:#000000;font-size:small;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none">
<div style="font:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="background:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="steve@tjiang.org" href="mailto:steve@tjiang.org" target="_blank">Steven Tjiang</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 20, 2011 11:33 PM</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Green Building</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Opinions on electric tankless HW
heaters?</div></div></div></div></div>
<div> </div></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div style="font-style:normal;display:inline;font-family:'Calibri';color:#000000;font-size:small;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none">Bob
<div>Your strategy would save energy and cost less and certainly in the spirit
of "demand reduction". It, however, would not pass the spousal acceptance
test.</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>---- Steve (KZ6LSD)<br><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Bob Waldrop <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bwaldrop@cox.net" target="_blank">bwaldrop@cox.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:'Arial';color:#000000;font-size:12pt">
<div>I think you can get the same effect, for a lot less money, by simply
installing a regular tank electric water heater and putting an on-off switch
on it, and be frugal in your use of hot water. (We are the masters of
the three minute shower.) When our tank has cooled to ambient, and
I flip the switch, within about 10 minutes I get a stream of hot water at the
tub or the kitchen sink.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bob Waldrop, Okie City</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-style:normal;display:inline;font-family:'Calibri';color:#000000;font-size:small;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none">
<div style="font:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="background:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="steve@tjiang.org" href="mailto:steve@tjiang.org" target="_blank">Steven Tjiang</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:27 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Green
Building</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a> </div>
<div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Opinions on electric tankless HW
heaters?</div></div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;display:inline;font-family:'Calibri';color:#000000;font-size:small;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none">
<div>Depending on the source of generation, heat pump water heaters
have roughly the same carbon footprint as gas water heater. However if
you power using electricity from renewables (wind) HPWH is significantly
better. My local utility offers the wind option, so I went with the HPWH with
solar preheat. Even if one were to use a Drain heat recovery, HPWH is
still the best alternative.
<div> </div></div>
<div>Having said that, demand reduction still comes first.<br>
<div><br clear="all">---- Steve (KZ6LSD)<br><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Frank Tettemer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:frank@livingsol.com" target="_blank">frank@livingsol.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">Hi All,<br><br>I can't vouch for Nick's idea that they
only manufacture 13KW tank-less hot water heaters. I think that the
manufacturers would certainly provide electric tank-less heaters of all
electrical load sizes, simply because there would be a demand for
lighter-duty models, and Somebody is going to fill that market.
However,<br><br>That doesn't mean that a light-weight tank-less heater would
provide a satisfactory supply of hot water. And certainly anyone who
has traveled South of the border, to various Carribean countries has
experienced those light-duty electric shower heaters, plugged into an
overhead electrical recepticle, just out of reach of the shower
curtain. (I'm not promoting these models for US or Can. use, however.)
<div><br><br>What I do think is entirely wrong,<br>is the idea that
an electric hot water heater, of any make or model, could possibly be
considered environmentally friendly. It's just way too big of a
stretch in reality.<br><br></div>
<div>Consider that a typical household of four would probably spend
about $30 to $40 per month on heating hot water. Either system,
tank-less or tank.<br>This is equal to about 400 Kwh, at the household's
electrical meter base.<br>This is also equal to about 1,300 Kwh of
comparable fuel, being burnt at the coal plant, or nuked at the nuke
plant.<br>(As we know, the accumulated losses, from conversion of fuel to
heat, conversion of heat to steam, conversion of steam to rotary motion,
conversion of motion to electrical current, and line losses from
transmission all add up to a factor of about 3.25 to 1. This is a
phenomena that is hard to accept, but even more impossible to ignore, while
designing appropriate technologies in an energy efficient
home.<br><br></div>
<div>Yes, Carmine, if we only look at the almighty dollar, and
compare costs of various methods of heating domestic hot water, or heating
hot water for distribution into household heating, the electric devices all
end up costing less to purchase and to operate, in the initial
assessment.<br><br></div>
<div>Giving regard to overall embodied energy of construction of
the domestic hot water system, and associated energy of electrical
production and transmission over a decade or two, however, the question
arises as to how this all pans out over the coming decade or two.
Looking at a comparison of economics, via using the dollar as the unit of
measure is way too short-sighted. It is misleading and hides the
truth.<br><br></div>
<div>In my humble opinion, and in my home design practice, I have
not specified any greater electrical use in a home that can be produced near
to the location of the home. As well, the PV array and/or wind turbine
associated with the home's electrical production really must be capped at a
small enough investment, (both dollars and embodied energy), that this
system is also not a burden to the planet. In other words, designing a
10KW PV system, plus a 10Kw wind turbine, for one single household, is to me
a pathetically privileged idea, and un-necessary exhibition of wealth, and
simply represents a too large footprint. I have built many homes over
the years, on of off grid, that operate on 3 to 5 Kwh per day, total
electrical loads, simply to avoid the burden to the grid and to the planet
in general.<br><br>If the average Canadian household uses 29 to 32 Kwh per
day, then a home that uses only 5 Kwh per day is living more lightly.
And this difference, when converted to fuel consumption for the electricity
used, represents over 2,000 units of fuel equivalency.<br>This represents a
savings upon the grid, and lightens it's load.<br><br>Nearly any other fuel
will have a lighter impact than electricity for hot water. And I'm not
even taking nuke meltdowns, like in Japan, into the equation. If we
add that level of environmental toxicity to the balance sheet, avoiding
electrical on-demand hot water heaters is a no brainer.<br><br>If we are
serious about discussing economic and environmental waste, let's first
consider simply living with less expectations, way less over-all consumption
of all goods, accepting and surrendering to the uncomfortable fact that this
planet cannot support our North American "needs" any longer, without these
"needs" being clearly labeled as privilege and greed.<br><br>I believe that
it is misleading people with advice that switching from one fossil fuel to
another is going to "improve" the environment. There is no "better"
fossil fuel, just as there is no better way to continue to consume goods at
the rate of most middle class households.<br><br>Our best fuel is a leap of
faith around finding that living with way less is way better.<br><br>Frank
Tettemer<br><br></div>
<div>Frank Tettemer<br>Living Sol ~ Building and Design<br><a href="http://www.livingsol.com" target="_blank">www.livingsol.com</a><br><a href="tel:613%20756%203884" value="+16137563884" target="_blank">613 756
3884</a><br><br></div>
<div>.............................................................................................................................................<br>Nick:
Please stop misleading people with your erroneous advice. We all know your
prejudice against both tank-less heaters & tank-less drain water heat
recovery systems that can deliver Energy Factors well above that offered by
the kinds of water heaters you promote.<br>Carmine<br><a href="http://gfxechnology.com" target="_blank">gfxechnology.com</a><br><br>------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>From:
<a href="mailto:npyner@tig.com.au" target="_blank">npyner@tig.com.au</a><br></div>
<div>To: <a href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></div>
<div>Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:37:24 +1000<br></div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Opinions on electric tankless HW
heaters?<br><br></div>
<div>Instant electric is usually the last choice on economic and
environmental grounds.<br>I doubt that Rheem would make them. Another
manufacturer that does is Stiebel Eltron. They have some pretty
sophisticated models but they are expensive and probably no more efficient
than their simpler ones.<br>Even a small instant electric will take about
13kW, so retrofitting one may call for some expensive wiring.<br><br></div>
<div>Nick Pyner<br><br>Dee Why NSW<br>-----Original
Message-----<br></div>
<div>*On Behalf Of *Matt<br><br>I have clients who might be ideal
candidates for a tankless hw heater. They don't have natural gas in their
home. I have installed gas tankless, but don't have any experience with
electric tankless heaters. I will need to size one for a family of two to
four.<br><br>Any opinions out there? Bosch? Rinnai? Rheem?...<br><br>--
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