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<DIV>FWIW, turning the hot water off and on is not a hard task. It took me about
a month to get the hang of it so there was generally always hot water, and after
about 6 months, we got to where we didn’t care if there was hot water instantly
all the time 24/7/365. It’s so integrated into the household tasks that it
seems like I have always done it this way. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Of course, I should also say that this was preceded by a whole year without
a hot water heater at all, lol, so that did a lot for demand destruction and
also made having a hot water heater seem like an unimaginable luxury. I
don’t advocate that people do the one year without hot water thing, lol.
Actually, we had plenty of hot water, we just used even more redneck solutions
such as heating water on a sunny day in a black painted bucket or in a
garden hose. it did break our addiction to long (e.g. 15 minute) hot
showers, which also saved money on the water bill.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Several people here locally have done this, after a local educational
station did a documentary about our house, as it is a simple and easy and not
very expensive thing to do for people with existing electric water
heaters. We installed ours as part of a whole house rewiring, but I hear
from friends that it costs about $200 to have an electrician come out and
install a switch. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob Waldrop, Okie City</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=steve@tjiang.org
href="mailto:steve@tjiang.org">Steven Tjiang</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 21, 2011 8:32 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org">Green Building</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Opinions on electric tankless HW
heaters?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">This
is getting off-topic.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>After many years I learn to pick my battles at home. I won the
"hanging up the laundry on a clothesline" battle which will save more energy
than some other possible behavior modifications.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But generally....we need to learn to pick our battles when it comes to
saving energy as a society. Hot water systems that saves energy and provide the
same level of comfort w/o user intervention will get wider adoption and hence
ultimately save more energy in total, than something that might individually
save more energy but receive little adoption.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Having said that I'm going to bike to work now.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>P.S. But Bob I admire your dedication to turning your hot water heater off
and on. I would do likewise if I could.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>---- Steve (KZ6LSD)<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Bob Waldrop <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:bwaldrop@cox.net">bwaldrop@cox.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
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<DIV>It is true that I am a confirmed bachelor, and that in fact people often
tell me, “Bob, if you had a wife, she would not let you do that,” (“that”
being whatever my latest low tech red neck energy conservation scheme might
be.) Having said that, it does take some amount of internal discipline to
remember to turn the switch OFF once it has been turned on, and also to not
necessarily turn it ON every time you need hot water, this is true for both
males and females. Over the last six years, various roommates have come
and gone (the population here waxes and wanes between 2 and 6), and each time
with the newbies there is a bump up in consumption for a couple of months
while they get used to the drill. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob Waldrop, OKC</DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=steve@tjiang.org href="mailto:steve@tjiang.org"
target=_blank>Steven Tjiang</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 20, 2011 11:33 PM</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Green
Building</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Opinions on electric tankless HW
heaters?</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Bob
<DIV>Your strategy would save energy and cost less and certainly in the spirit
of "demand reduction". It, however, would not pass the spousal
acceptance test.</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>---- Steve (KZ6LSD)<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Bob Waldrop <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:bwaldrop@cox.net"
target=_blank>bwaldrop@cox.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
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<DIV>I think you can get the same effect, for a lot less money, by simply
installing a regular tank electric water heater and putting an on-off switch
on it, and be frugal in your use of hot water. (We are the masters of
the three minute shower.) When our tank has cooled to ambient,
and I flip the switch, within about 10 minutes I get a stream of hot water
at the tub or the kitchen sink.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob Waldrop, Okie City</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=steve@tjiang.org href="mailto:steve@tjiang.org"
target=_blank>Steven Tjiang</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:27 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Green
Building</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Opinions on electric tankless HW
heaters?</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV>Depending on the source of generation, heat pump water heaters have
roughly the same carbon footprint as gas water heater. However if you
power using electricity from renewables (wind) HPWH is significantly better.
My local utility offers the wind option, so I went with the HPWH with solar
preheat. Even if one were to use a Drain heat recovery, HPWH is still
the best alternative.
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Having said that, demand reduction still comes first.<BR>
<DIV><BR clear=all>---- Steve (KZ6LSD)<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Frank Tettemer <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:frank@livingsol.com"
target=_blank>frank@livingsol.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Hi All,<BR><BR>I can't vouch for Nick's idea that they
only manufacture 13KW tank-less hot water heaters. I think that the
manufacturers would certainly provide electric tank-less heaters of all
electrical load sizes, simply because there would be a demand for
lighter-duty models, and Somebody is going to fill that market.
However,<BR><BR>That doesn't mean that a light-weight tank-less heater
would provide a satisfactory supply of hot water. And certainly
anyone who has traveled South of the border, to various Carribean
countries has experienced those light-duty electric shower heaters,
plugged into an overhead electrical recepticle, just out of reach of the
shower curtain. (I'm not promoting these models for US or Can. use,
however.)
<DIV><BR><BR>What I do think is entirely wrong,<BR>is the idea that an
electric hot water heater, of any make or model, could possibly be
considered environmentally friendly. It's just way too big of a
stretch in reality.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Consider that a typical household of four would probably spend about
$30 to $40 per month on heating hot water. Either system, tank-less
or tank.<BR>This is equal to about 400 Kwh, at the household's electrical
meter base.<BR>This is also equal to about 1,300 Kwh of comparable fuel,
being burnt at the coal plant, or nuked at the nuke plant.<BR>(As we know,
the accumulated losses, from conversion of fuel to heat, conversion of
heat to steam, conversion of steam to rotary motion, conversion of motion
to electrical current, and line losses from transmission all add up to a
factor of about 3.25 to 1. This is a phenomena that is hard to
accept, but even more impossible to ignore, while designing appropriate
technologies in an energy efficient home.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Yes, Carmine, if we only look at the almighty dollar, and compare
costs of various methods of heating domestic hot water, or heating hot
water for distribution into household heating, the electric devices all
end up costing less to purchase and to operate, in the initial
assessment.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Giving regard to overall embodied energy of construction of the
domestic hot water system, and associated energy of electrical production
and transmission over a decade or two, however, the question arises as to
how this all pans out over the coming decade or two. Looking at a
comparison of economics, via using the dollar as the unit of measure is
way too short-sighted. It is misleading and hides the truth.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>In my humble opinion, and in my home design practice, I have not
specified any greater electrical use in a home that can be produced near
to the location of the home. As well, the PV array and/or wind
turbine associated with the home's electrical production really must be
capped at a small enough investment, (both dollars and embodied energy),
that this system is also not a burden to the planet. In other words,
designing a 10KW PV system, plus a 10Kw wind turbine, for one single
household, is to me a pathetically privileged idea, and un-necessary
exhibition of wealth, and simply represents a too large footprint. I
have built many homes over the years, on of off grid, that operate on 3 to
5 Kwh per day, total electrical loads, simply to avoid the burden to the
grid and to the planet in general.<BR><BR>If the average Canadian
household uses 29 to 32 Kwh per day, then a home that uses only 5 Kwh per
day is living more lightly. And this difference, when converted to
fuel consumption for the electricity used, represents over 2,000 units of
fuel equivalency.<BR>This represents a savings upon the grid, and lightens
it's load.<BR><BR>Nearly any other fuel will have a lighter impact than
electricity for hot water. And I'm not even taking nuke meltdowns,
like in Japan, into the equation. If we add that level of
environmental toxicity to the balance sheet, avoiding electrical on-demand
hot water heaters is a no brainer.<BR><BR>If we are serious about
discussing economic and environmental waste, let's first consider simply
living with less expectations, way less over-all consumption of all goods,
accepting and surrendering to the uncomfortable fact that this planet
cannot support our North American "needs" any longer, without these
"needs" being clearly labeled as privilege and greed.<BR><BR>I believe
that it is misleading people with advice that switching from one fossil
fuel to another is going to "improve" the environment. There is no
"better" fossil fuel, just as there is no better way to continue to
consume goods at the rate of most middle class households.<BR><BR>Our best
fuel is a leap of faith around finding that living with way less is way
better.<BR><BR>Frank Tettemer<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Frank Tettemer<BR>Living Sol ~ Building and Design<BR><A
href="http://www.livingsol.com" target=_blank>www.livingsol.com</A><BR><A
href="tel:613%20756%203884" target=_blank value="+16137563884">613 756
3884</A><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>.............................................................................................................................................<BR>Nick:
Please stop misleading people with your erroneous advice. We all know your
prejudice against both tank-less heaters & tank-less drain water heat
recovery systems that can deliver Energy Factors well above that offered
by the kinds of water heaters you promote.<BR>Carmine<BR><A
href="http://gfxechnology.com"
target=_blank>gfxechnology.com</A><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>From:
<A href="mailto:npyner@tig.com.au"
target=_blank>npyner@tig.com.au</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV>To: <A href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:37:24 +1000<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Opinions on electric tankless HW
heaters?<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Instant electric is usually the last choice on economic and
environmental grounds.<BR>I doubt that Rheem would make them. Another
manufacturer that does is Stiebel Eltron. They have some pretty
sophisticated models but they are expensive and probably no more efficient
than their simpler ones.<BR>Even a small instant electric will take about
13kW, so retrofitting one may call for some expensive
wiring.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Nick Pyner<BR><BR>Dee Why NSW<BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR></DIV>
<DIV>*On Behalf Of *Matt<BR><BR>I have clients who might be ideal
candidates for a tankless hw heater. They don't have natural gas in their
home. I have installed gas tankless, but don't have any experience with
electric tankless heaters. I will need to size one for a family of two to
four.<BR><BR>Any opinions out there? Bosch? Rinnai? Rheem?...<BR><BR>--
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