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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Scouring brings up its own issues in the pnw. We don’t have a huge soil structure in the woods and there is concern here that the forests are a net equation i.e. that what is seemingly dead on the forest floor is very much part of what is also standing. Chris Masers redesigned forest is a good read on that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>There is another issue with the use of wood products on roof (not fire which is also an issue). Traditionally shake roofs lasted because there was essentially nothing underlaying them. With older barn shake roofs you could literally see through them. Dirt debris was free to fall through and lots of air circulation. When the codes changed to require an underlayment roofers would joke that the roof was warranted for as long as the tar paper lasted. At this point you could say that they will last as long as the preservative treatments (in addition to the tarpaper) as the roofs basically rot.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Fibre cement has pretty well disappeared here as a roofing product (subject to some of the same moisture/deterioration problems as the native wood). I’ve found that as excited as I was about roofing alternatives coming on to the market over the last 20 years very few of the ones that interested me are still around. The only big advance has been metal roofing that conceals the fasteners (duh) and perhaps some commercial sheet or membrane products that marginally greener and hence more viability for a greener green roof.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;line-height:80%'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;line-height:80%;font-family:"Gill Sans MT","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>JOHN SALMEN ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;line-height:80%'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;line-height:80%;font-family:"Eras Light ITC","sans-serif";color:#FF3300'>station design & millwork<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans MT Condensed","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>4465 UPHILL RD DUNCAN BC V9L6M7 250-748-7672 C 250-246-8541 F 250-748-7612<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tim Vireo Keating<br><b>Sent:</b> June-22-11 8:36 PM<br><b>To:</b> Green Building<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] "Ecoshel" anyone?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>At this point, FSC is practically meaningless when it comes to determining whether logging is sustainable or not, given all the certifications by FSC-accredited certifiers in old growth. While it would be nice, I highly doubt that this particular company is among the very, very few that are accessing WRC from folks who are out there scouring the forest floor for already-downed trees. But I'd sure love to hear that that is indeed the case.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>tim keating<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>At 10:36 AM -0400 6/22/11, Matt Dirksen wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Thank you for your opinions about the product. While my understanding is the company is legit when it comes to FSC certification, I am still wondering if it is still a better way to recommend fiber cement over cedar. From a durability perspective, my sense tells me the fiber cement will last longer. It just seems that the newer cedar products won't hold up like the "old-growth" products. On the other hand, I imagine old cedar still has a potential for re-use where I could only hope fiber cement could be diverted from the landfill.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>At the end of the day: do I want to support more killing of trees, or digging up of the earth.... or both. (sigh). I'd suspect both the trees and the earth are tired of this giveaway by now.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Matt<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Chris Koehn <<a href="mailto:chris@koehn.com">chris@koehn.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Matt,<br><br>I'm not familiar with this product in particular. While Tim's admonishment about old growth sources may be applicable, you won't know for sure without asking a few questions of the supplier. The site does claim to use salvaged logs and FSC logs.<br>FYI There is a vibrant business in B.C. cutting shakes from stumps of old growth trees that were felled long ago. Shake blockers do this work, often working deep in the bush, using helicopters to take the blocks out. There is also much salvageable red cedar in log form lying in the bush. Until the middle of the last century, most cedar was felled and abandoned to simply get it out of the way so that higher value douglas fir could be accessed. Just Saturday I was walking in the bush and came across three enormous cedar logs that had been felled at least 50 years ago: there's still plenty of salvageable wood in the centre of these logs.<br>Western red cedar is an amazingly durable material, and if it can be procured from sustainable sources, it can be a good choice.<br><br>Chris<br>TimberGuides<br>Vancouver Island<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><br>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>"The Earth and myself are of one mind. The measure of the land and the</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>measure of our bodies are the same..."</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'> - Hinmaton Yalatkit, Nez Perce chief</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>____________________________________________</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>R A I N F O R E S T R E L I E F</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>Sparing the World's Rainforests from Consumption</span></i><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>Rainforest Relief works to protect the world's remaining tropical</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>and temperate rainforests by reducing the demand for the products</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>and materials of rainforest destruction such as timber and paper,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>industrial agricultural products such as bananas, beef, coffee,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>chocolate and cut flowers, and mining products</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>such as oil, gold and aluminum.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>New York, NY: (917) 543-4064</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>Portland, OR: (503) 236-3031</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>http://www.rainforestrelief.org</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>info@rainforestrelief.org</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>Church Street Station * PO Box 298 * NY, NY 10008-0298</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Skia","serif";color:black'>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><</span></b><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>