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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Marilyn<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Funny to talking about snow in the middle of you heat wave.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sounds like the issue is not just the weather (or weather maintenance i.e. snowshoveling) but some failure around the door and roof membrane.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The code allows for a 2” separation between a deck and a door which is pretty minimal. (a deck is classed as a roof in this case). I’ve had to try and reduce that distance further for accessibility issues but if not it is nice to increase it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>For it to have a hope in hell of working there needs to be a good membrane connection of the roof up and over over the plate under the door sill and the plate itself needs to have a slope (I usually specify plastic lumber sill with the top planed to a bevel). The membrane over the sill also needs to extend up the door jamb forming a continuous waterproof seal. The roof membrane also needs to extend up the wall and connect to the seal around the door jamb and sill. Also the door needs to open out so that the weatherstripping and doors seals can drain to the exterior. The door frame (sill and sides) also has to have a good connection to the membrane (usually a foam backer rod of the right diameter sealed in with a good quality polyurethane caulking – with good expansion and contraction). That is a lot of connections and they have be layered and adhered properly to allow for movement.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If all those connections are done properly and the snow is cleared from against the wall and door it will work – if one of the seams separates and water gets in and freezes opening up a seam further – it all goes to hell.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is nice to have the seams at the building wall edge open for inspection and maintenance. A u channel plastic gutter works well and can drain into the drain layer below the soil (are we talking 3-4” extensive type soil?). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In terms of fixing the problem I think you need to pull back the soil/drainage layer from the wall about a foot or so. You have to pull the door out and remove the siding to expose the weather barrier and roof membrane flashing. You probably have some damaged sill under and around the door area as well as sheathing and that would need to be replaced. I would recommend a plastic lumber sill under the door (less expansion and contraction and forms a better seal to the membrane). I would have an experienced roofer run a new membrane flashing over the existing roof membrane and up the wall and over the door sill (and warranty the work). I would recommend increasing the height from deck to door to about 6-8” (if stepping up and over is not a problem) and having a short door put in (outswing).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I would lay in some kind of gutter channel with cover (plastic u-drains for driveways work well) against the building and under the door – you may have to have holes drilled in it so it drains to the drain layer. I would recommend putting a heating cable in the gutter channel (can be a plug in type if you have an exterior outlet). Typically at the roof wall junction there is less insulation and more building heat loss that would keep the drain from freezing but you never know.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Do NOT put a drain through the membrane in front of the door – your plumbing system drain is probably not designed for the extra flow and it is just another hole in the boat.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;line-height:80%'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;line-height:80%;font-family:"Gill Sans MT","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>JOHN SALMEN ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;line-height:80%'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;line-height:80%;font-family:"Eras Light ITC","sans-serif";color:#FF3300'>station design & millwork<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans MT Condensed","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>4465 UPHILL RD DUNCAN BC V9L6M7 250-748-7672 C 250-246-8541 F 250-748-7612<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marilyn<br><b>Sent:</b> July-23-11 8:59 AM<br><b>To:</b> greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Greenbuilding] Green roof drainage question<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Hi List:</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Here's the problem, best as I can state it.</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>When I had my green roof put on the addition to my home, the roof came higher than the place it would have been without due to necessary engineering, so the 'ground level' is only about 2 inches below the door sill where I go out there.</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>For a couple of years in a row now we have had much snow and a giant fast thaw in February.</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>What seems to be happening, best as I can figure out, is that the sun has sort of 'glazed' the surface of the ground due to the sun and cold so when the rapid thaw hits, the water cannot get to the normal drainage channels, and because the glazing has evened out the roof surface and counteracted the roof drainage slope, the water backs up through my door and causes mucho damage.</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>I've been trying to figure out what to do for a couple years now, talking to contractors, none of whom seem to be familiar with green roofs or have run into any similar problems, so they're winging it with the ideas.</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>One idea was to put a drain right in front of the door that would tie into my washing machine drainage below - would mean keeping the drain clear all winter, but that can be done unless we get enough snow that I can't open the door to the roof, which has happened. The biggie with this one was that the contractor couldn't figure out how and where the drain needed to be sealed with all the layers (torch-down, root barrier, drainage layer etc) of stuff he was unfamilair with. He consulted a roof and a plumber, but no joy.</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>The other idea was just to keep dumping lots of de-icer in front of the door so that the water had a place to get down to the drainage layer, but my hesitation with this is that with only 6 inches of light-weight soil mix, wouldn't the drainage channels in the mat likely be frozen? Could this actually work?</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Sorry this is lengthy, but I'm trying to explain something I don't really have the language for, nor likely a full understanding of the situation. This is the worst part of 'going green' is that there's no help from contractors when things go wrong since most of them haven't a clue and won't even (and don't want to) think about it or learn.</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>I hope some of the group here has some ideas or can evaluate the ideas above - or anything. I'd be most grateful for any inspiration or guidance.</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>TIA,</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>~marilyn</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Cybercrone</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>http://www.eol.ca/~cybercrone</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Hm-m-m-m . . .</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>In arithmetic as in politics, the importance of one</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>is determined by the number of zeros behind him. - Unknown</span><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>