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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor="#FFCCCC" lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I would agree as my experience is the same and should have mentioned that when ply was used (prior to cemboard being around) a membrane was adhered to allow for both waterproofing and movement. I mentioned as well for the counter to use a thin layer of cemboard adhered and screwed and should have said that you have to use that and still pay attention to the moisture details and thinset and grout contents. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>After all these years I still think tile is one of the best countertop materials. It is perfectly suited to the use and abuse. Only the grout lines need sealing and they can be minimal. Stone needs sealing and erodes and stains. All the composites look like shit after a day or two of normal usage (sure they can be resurface but it is like having to refinish the gelcoat on a boat once a year so it looks good for a day or two). Concrete can’t take ANY acidity – pits and corrodes like crazy. Old concrete and stone unsealed and left to get dull and gritty look good to me but not to most people.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Unlike Allan I have seen maple butcher block (not end grain – that is reserved for kitchens) survive. My only reservation is places like Ikea produce it and I would have to do my Ikea rant to cover that one.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Houlihan<br><b>Sent:</b> July-27-11 4:23 PM<br><b>To:</b> greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I have build many tile countertops in my career. I have built mortar beds, used Durock, Hardibacker and Wonderboard and set tile directly on plywood. without exception every tile install I did over plywood failed! I very strongly discourage this idea! Eventually the grout cracks and water gets down into the plywood and it swells and destroys the countertop.<br><br>In the beginning you said you wanted to do tile and that will still be the easiest and cheapest. If you stay away from the very hard porcelain or vitrified tiles you should have no problem cutting tiles with a snap cutter or a carborundum grit blade in a jig saw.<br><br>My preference for tile counters is to put down a layer of 1/2 inch Hardibacker Board using lots of screws and a layer of thin-set then set the tiles on top of this again using thinset. This makes a very strong and long lasting countertop. I have set tile directly on good sheetrock walls for a backsplash and this works well as long as the house doesn't move too much. Some re-caulking at the junction of the backsplash and countertop may be needed. I have also used 1/4 inch backerboard on backsplashes. Then you can use thinset and fiberglass mesh tape at the joint but you have to deal with the 1/4 inch edge at the top.<br><br>Steve<br><br><br><br>On 7/27/11 6:12 AM, JOHN SALMEN wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><pre>Depends what you mean about warpage. I've even had concrete counters warp<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(deflect, bend, twist) - most materials move so it is a question of gluing,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>screwing, nailing, supporting, blocking and sealing to provide support and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>resist movement. Basic exterior 3/4" ply is pretty resistant to moisture and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>moisture damage (can be wetted and dried numerous times without damage).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Before cement boards became common 1/2" exterior ply was the standard backer<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>for tile walls on premium projects. I would recommend stick with the ply and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>tile plan and provide whatever additional support is needed underneath to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>support the spans and make the material rigid. A thin layer of cement board<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>is excellent to use under the tile and is better around sink areas as a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>substrate - bond it to the ply with tile mortar and screws (lap any seams in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the ply). <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I also recommend butcher block counters. Surprisingly inexpensive natural<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>material that you can purchase by the foot, refinish numerous times by<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>sanding and oiling and takes on character as it gets burned and stained and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>well used.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: <a href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>[<a href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] On Behalf Of Lynelle<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Hamilton<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: July-26-11 6:29 PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: Green Building<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>The warping is noticeable, so I'm already replacing the ply. I'd have to <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>figure out how to keep any new ply from warping, though. What's the heat <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>resistance, do you know? Bamboo would be great for the edge.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Thanks, Jason!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Lynelle<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On 26/07/2011 9:20 PM, Jason Holstine wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>How about Marmoleum sheet on that plywood (or, if it's warped, replace <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the plywood for about 15 cents). Ol' fashioned, all-natural, easy to <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>clean, durable linoleum. Just glue it up on the ply. Material should <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>should be about $7/sf and if you're reasonably astute, could be DIY. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Biggest issue is your front edge-you'll probably want a different <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>material for the edge band, like a bamboo, wood, or metal.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On 7/26/11 9:00 PM, "Lynelle Hamilton" <a href="mailto:lynelle@lahamilton.com"><lynelle@lahamilton.com></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> Again, I ask the list for advice. I am now at the point of installing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> kitchen counters. I have had plywood on the counters (3/4 overlaid<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> screwed to 3/8", as a substrate for tile, but have had warping<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> (I'm on<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> the water). I don't trust it for tile. I've been told others in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> the area<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> have had this problem. They've generally solved it by installing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> Arborite, something I am loathe to do.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> That places me squarely in a quandary. I can't find reclaimed granite<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> in the size I need--the reclamation folks near me generally sell the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> counters with the cabinets anyway. The budget will not allow for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> "new"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> granite and I want to use something that screws the earth less than<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> other options (particularly given that I've already wasted some<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> otherwise good plywood).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> I am the installer, so it must be pretty simple.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> Any creative ideas out there?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> Thanks!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> Lynelle<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Greenbuilding mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>gylists.org<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></div></body></html>