<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">My understanding is that the majority of members on this list are here to share ideas with, ask questions of, and learn from the other list members.<div><br></div><div>If we knew it all we probably wouldn't need to be here.</div><div><br></div><div>The point was not whether Frank or Nick or I was 'right' or 'wrong' or using incorrect terminology, but rather the courtesy and respect we afford to people who take the time to offer some input on a subject.</div><div><br></div><div>Gordon, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to put together your explanation of the difference between Power and Energy. What I don't appreciate is people who are rude or disparaging of the honest efforts of others.</div><div><br></div><div>Is a little common courtesy too much to ask for?</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,<br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Papyrus; color: rgb(255, 160, 18); "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Papyrus; color: rgb(99, 10, 255); "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Steve Satow</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Papyrus; color: rgb(99, 10, 255); "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Papyrus; color: rgb(99, 10, 255); "><a href="http://www.naturalbuildingsite.net">www.naturalbuildingsite.net</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Papyrus; color: rgb(99, 10, 255); "><a href="mailto:naturalbuilding@shaw.ca">naturalbuilding@shaw.ca</a></div></div></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></span>
</div>
<br><div><div>On 2011-08-06, at 1:25 PM, Gordon Howell -- Howell Mayhew Engineering wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<div>
Greenbuilding List:<br><br>
Further to the interchange below highlighting people's incorrect use
units for energy and power, <br>
though it may seem reasonable on the surface to say "almost every
Canadian on this list (including myself) and, I suspect, most others in
North America and around the world either know or have the capacity to
figure out what your original message meant":<br><br>
it is the same as mixing up speed (km/h) and distance (km), or volume
(litres) and flow (litres per second) (which we would never do and would
be disparaged by society if we did)<br>
and <br>
then we get these same people who "apparently" understand how
to "figure it out" then making huge calculating errors when the
look at solar PV economics or sizing (as I've seen many times) because
they don't fundamentally know the difference between energy and
power.<br><br>
<b><u>I would suggest that it is extremely important to not mix up these
units.<br>
</u></b>A watt is a rate of energy flow -- it is like speed, which is a
rate of distance "flowing". A watt means a joule per
second. Whenever you use "W" think of "joule per
second"... so a 230 W solar PV module generates 230 joules of
electrical energy per second (at rated solar conditions of 1000 joules
per second per m2).<br><br>
A kWh (or preferably joule) is an amount of energy -- it is like
distance.<br><br>
kWh means "thousand times watts times hours", which is a
correct energy unit.<br><br>
kW/day means "thousand times watts per day", means
"thousands x joules per second per day" -- it is a unit of
energy-production acceleration. It is never used on a small scale
as in kW or days. The electric utilities and regulators use MW/hour
units, because it speaks of the rate at which generators can ramp up or
down (which is an acceleration) the rate (MW or millions of joules per
second) at which they can produce energy. We also use MW/year to
describe the capacity of a PV factory, because it also implies the
acceleration of PV energy generation in the world due to that
factory.<br><br>
So I made the attached PowerPoint presentation to help (I hope) people
understand the difference between the two and the importance for not
mixing them up.<br><br>
I have to say that when I see people mixing up energy and power units,
then immediately my mind starts to discredit them and their professional
expertise... and I've even seen engineers, electric regulators and
electric utilities mix them up!<br><br>
I am quite fascinated that peoples' mixup in all this fundamentally
arises because we have non-metric time, and this is due to the Sumerians
of some 4000 years ago who gave us the sexagecimal system, which we use
for hours, degrees, minutes and seconds.<br><br>
I would value anyone's comments on this.<br><br>
+Gordon Howell<br>
Edmonton<br><br>
<br><br>
<blockquote type="cite" class="cite" cite="x-msg://702/">Please see my replies to your
questions, below. You may not comprehend <br>
all of my answers, but that is all right.<br><br>
> We've mounted 13,000 watts DC panels, in agreement with the Ontario
<br>
> Power Authority to sell, at max., 10 Kw per hour.<br><br>
I mean that we have 52 Solar Worldphotovoltaic modules, rated at 250
<br>
watts Direct Current output each, mounted in four strings, feeding two
<br>
SMA 5,000 watt output inverters, and that the Ontario Power Authority
<br>
will buy 10 Kilowatts of electricity, maximum, per hour, produced from
<br>
these modules.<br><br>
> These sunny summer days, we vary from 75 to 92 Kw per
day...<br><br>
Each day varies, as does the weather, and we typically sell between 75
<br>
kilowatt hours to 92 kilowatt hours per day, to the Ontario Power <br>
Authority.<br><br>
> They pay 81 cents per Kw produced, up to a maximum of 10 Kw per
hour...<br><br>
Each day, the Ontario Power Authority pays $0.81 Canadian Dollars for
<br>
each kilowatt that they buy from us. However, they will only pay for 10
<br>
kilowatts per hour, even if we produce more than that. The limit of 10
<br>
kilowatts per hour is a part of the definition of the Ontario microFIT
<br>
distributed generation program.<br><br>
> This means we produce more full 10Kw each hour than the standard
<br>
> 11,000 watts arrays<br><br>
I am impressed by your courteous (and slightly humorous) response to what
I considered a rather inappropriate email.<br>
Almost every Canadian on this list (including myself) and, I suspect,
most others in North America and around the world either know or have the
capacity to figure out what your original message
meant.</blockquote></div>
<span><Energy, power and electricity -- they are NOT the same --v5.pdf></span>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>