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Just a side note: aren't torch down roofs illegal in NYC?<br><br>
David<br><br>
At 03:53 PM 8/29/2011, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">It is strange you all are saying
that torch down rolls are the way to<br>
go. I was always under the impression that EPDM lasted a lot longer.
I<br>
just called Allied Roofing and they confirmed that the manufacturers<br>
warranty for roll down is about 20 years and EPDM is about 30
years.<br><br>
Gennaro Brooks-Church<br><br>
Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA<br>
<a href="http://www.ecobrooklyn.com/" eudora="autourl">
www.EcoBrooklyn.com</a><br>
22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:46 PM, John Straube <jfstraube@gmail.com>
wrote:<br>
> My experience with pricing is different John.<br>
> Orifice choke valves on roof drains do a good job and are a couple
hundred bucks per drain.<br>
> The premium for a green roof is at least $10 per square foot plus
any additional structure cost. That often shows up as a lot of
money.<br>
> Storm water management of parking lots is a different beast.<br>
><br>
> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain@shaw.ca><br>
> Sender: greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:18:41<br>
> To: 'Green Building'<greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org>;
'Rob Tom'<Archilogic@yahoo.ca><br>
> Reply-To: Green Building
<greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof<br>
><br>
> I would agree about 2 ply bitumen as a decent option at least
from<br>
> durability and recycled content. I disagree about simpler methods
for<br>
> stormwater retention - which is probably one of the most redeeming
features<br>
> of a green roof (adding stormwater quality to that). Most other
methods are<br>
> ground invasive and require a different and costly level of
engineering and<br>
> technology (even a good porous parking lot is difficult to do
well).<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
>
[<a href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] On Behalf Of
John<br>
> Straube<br>
> Sent: August-29-11 8:32 AM<br>
> To: Rob Tom; Green Building<br>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof<br>
><br>
> Practical experience with EPDM roofs is that they do not have
great<br>
> durability. This is one reason they, and TPO, are almost never
used in<br>
> green roofs. I would also assume you would be specifying a
protected<br>
> membrane roof in any case you care about durability. Worry
about which<br>
> membrane uses more or less oil or energy seems completely misplaced
if there<br>
> is a trade off with durability which there will be with roofing
products.<br>
> Pick the most durable, or nearly the most durable, roof membrane and
save<br>
> environmental impact on the life-cycle.<br>
> Tar roof is not sufficiently specific to make judgements.
There are many<br>
> types.<br>
> I would always recommend either a two-ply modified bitumen roof, or
liquid<br>
> applied glass matt reinforced hot rubberized asphalt if all you
cared about<br>
> was durability.<br>
><br>
> Speaking of cooking the books, Dr Lui's report, like most you will
find,<br>
> over sell the performance benefits of green roofs. They do
this by<br>
> comparing an excellent green roof design with the dumbest low slope
roof we<br>
> know how to build (an exposed membrane black roof). A
fair comparison is<br>
> to compare a green roof to a protect membrane roof (PMR) with white
balast<br>
> (pavers or river rock). When this is done the energy savings
and durability<br>
> benefits of a green roof essentially vanish. The benefits of
dust removal,<br>
> stormwater retention remain. There are cheaper ways to retain
stormwater<br>
> than a green roof. The reason for a green roof is mostly
because they are<br>
> beautiful to look at relative to the options, and in intensely urban
areas<br>
> they add to biodiversity (they don't do much in rural
settings).<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 2011-08-29, at 10:20 AM, RT wrote:<br>
><br>
>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:13:45 -0400, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco
Brooklyn<br>
> <info@ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> So....over 30 years.<br>
>>> Tar roof - $40, more petro chemicals consumed, more waster
created.<br>
>>> EPDM + green roof - $40,<br>
>><br>
>>> Your thoughts? How do my numbers look?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I'd say that the numbers look like they were "cooked"
by someone who might<br>
> have done creative book-keeping for Tony Soprano et al.<br>
>><br>
>> But aside from that, all or most of the benefits in the
comparison are due<br>
> to the Green Roof component and a Green Roof can be installed over
any<br>
> waterproof membrane and provide the same benefits.<br>
>><br>
>> Without actually checking the actual numbers (not my job, eh ?)
I have a<br>
> gut feeling that the embodied-energy of a hot-mopped tar membrane is
lower<br>
> than that of an EPDM.<br>
>><br>
>> But using Gennaro's numbers for life expectancy -- 30 years --
I'd say<br>
> that that's pretty ?!$$-poor performance (PPPP or 4P).<br>
>><br>
>> Any Greenie worth their chlorophyll would shun asphalt shingles
as a<br>
> sloped roofing option largely because of their short service life
(30 years<br>
> max) and their high waste factor (ie not recyclable for the most
part) so<br>
> it's curious that one would consider a 30-year tar or EPDM membrane
as<br>
> viable options for a flat roof.<br>
>><br>
>> That is to say, perhaps third, fourth or fifth non-petro options
might be<br>
> considered for the membrane (the Green Roof being a
"given" if for no other<br>
> reason, because it extends the life of the membrane, like
IRMAs).<br>
>><br>
>> The other benefits are quantified in Dr. Karen Lui's report (if
the IRC at<br>
> NRC) which I've cited here numerous times in the past.<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> === * ===<br>
>> Rob Tom<br>
>> Kanata, Ontario, Canada<br>
>> < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o
dot c a ><br>
>> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit
"reply")<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
> gylists.org<br>
><br>
> Dr John Straube, P.Eng.<br>
> Associate Professor<br>
> University of Waterloo<br>
> Dept of Civil Eng. & School of Architecture<br>
>
<a href="http://www.buildingscience.com/" eudora="autourl">
www.buildingscience.com</a><br>
><br>
><br>
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</blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<br>
David Bergman RA LEED AP<br>
<font size=2 color="#808080"><b>DAVID BERGMAN</b> ARCHITECT / <b>FIRE
& WATER</b> LIGHTING + FURNITURE<br>
</font><font color="#808080">architecture . interiors .
</font><font color="#008080">ecodesign</font><font color="#808080"> .
lighting . furniture<br>
</font><font size=2 color="#808080">bergman@cyberg.com
<a href="http://www.cyberg.com/" eudora="autourl"><u>www.cyberg.com</a>
</u></font><font color="#808080"> <br>
</font><font size=2 color="#808080">241 Eldridge Street #3R, New York, NY
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</font><font color="#808080">t </font><font size=2 color="#808080">212
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