<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
--></style><title>Re: [Greenbuilding] Another Green Myth: Garbage
Incinerat</title></head><body>
<div>Erin,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>You have indeed mentioned an important aspect of "waste to
energy" facilities - the need to compete in the marketing of
the energy. This is why these facilities will often enter into
agreements with counties to assure that the counties supply a minimum
amount of waste. Contrary to what you have said, this actually creates
a disincentive to recycling and recovery of waste. This was certainly
the case in Monmouth County, NJ, where we beat back the incinerator
that was proposed (the former governor had decreed there should be one
in each county in the state).</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>In Bergen County, I believe, the incinerator company actually
sued the county when the waste being delivered to the incinerator
dropped below an agreed level, and, when recyling started to kick in,
the county had to start importing waste from another county or face
massive fines (to which they had agree).</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>These facilities are a maw that needs to be constantly fed, once
built.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Yes, landfilling is not a great option. But, if one were to take
the millions committed to these facilities (supposedly to create jobs)
and the billions to build them and actually educate the community
(with door-to-door neighborhood environmental wardens (giving students
summer jobs), shift to a pay-per-pound trash disposal arrangement,
deliver bins for source-separation and hire a crew of enforcement
agents, I believe recycling rates would approach 90%, negating the
need for incinerators. The 10% heading to landfills could be processed
in MRFs, capturing another 5% of the total (that is 50% of what the
MRF processes). These MRFs (material recovery facilities) could be
subsidized for about 10% of the subsidies going to the
incinerators.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>If any company saw the opportunity to make any money burning what
little is left, 'power' to them. But, given what I know about
incinerators, this would be unlikely.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>My personal experience in Jersey City, NJ is that people are
simply either not recycling or they are putting materials into the
recycling that the "recycling" company can't use (that is,
contaminants). But the company picking up the recyclables doesn't care
because they are contacted by the city for a set amount, regardless of
what they collect. Thus, there is a disincentive to enforce recycling.
My guess is that much of what they collect ends up at the incinerator.
This is a shame. We need to create incentives to use recyclable
packages by charging for waste generated (pay-per-pound) as well as
educate our populations. Also, we need to bring back source-separation
and municipal collection of recyclables. As well, our recycling
coordinators need to be educated and committed to recycling, rather
than hired from cities' existing public works departments' staff, who
know nothing about recycling or the markets for recycled
materials).</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I believe that if these steps were taken, municipalities would be
making money by selling recycled materials, recycling rates would
approach 90% and thus there would be no need to burn anything.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Oh, and BTW, incinerators are horrible generators of mercury
(likely from batteries thrown in the trash that could have easily been
recycled, had the people been educated and given incentives to do
so).</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>tim</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>At 12:23 PM -0800 12/1/11, Erin Rasmussen wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;<br>
<x-tab>
</x-tab>boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0193_01CCB024.11BCD140"<br
>
Content-language: en-us<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Okay, to address the unfeasible question
I'll go backward before I go forward. I am not by any means an
expert in this area, but this is the back story that I was thinking of
as I wrote that message.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>In burning clean waste for energy, you
are essentially create a company that has to operate at enough of a
profit to be able to keep paying their employees and keep up with
maintenance to the facility and the machinery needed to perform that
task (and cover your other overhead). On top of that, these
energy plants can be expensive, and the investors typically want
to be paid back some amount of profit for their initial
investment.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Fuels derived from clean, unrecyclable
sources are often oddly shaped and require specialized material
handling to put them into a form that can be efficiently burned in a
power plant, and the cost of that handling can make the fuel
expensive.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>These plants also typically operate in a
market where they compete with some relatively inexpensive forms of
power. So, the plant may not be able to sell enough power at a high
enough profit to pay for the expensive fuel, the maintenance of the
facility and the pay of the employees. (I'm ignoring the investors for
now). Those are some factors that can make the plant
unfeasible. </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>In some areas, there are incentives for
disposing of waste (tipping fees etc) that can make up the difference
in price and allow the power plant to operate at enough of a profit to
ensure continued operation. (I don't get the sense that
companies are making a lot of money in this area the profit off of
wind turbines is a lot higher and that seems to be driving some of the
growth in that area).</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>In addition to the obvious necessity of
keeping the doors open on your facility, there's the "will of the
people" in your area. In some areas, the local community is
supportive of the plant, and there tends to be a positive experience,
but in many areas of the country the community is less supportive
and/or actively working against your facility (or proposed facility)
and in those areas the experience of the people who own and run the
plant can be quite different.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Cheers,</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Erin</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>erin@trmiles.com</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><b>From:</b>
greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]<b> On Behalf
Of</b> John Salmen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 29, 2011 7:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Green Building'; 'Reuben Demling'; 'Gennaro
Brooks-Church'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Another Green Myth: Garbage
Incinerators Are Green Sources of Energy</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>I am confused as to why you mention
burning in the USA as 'unfeasible'. Is it because recycling has
not yet claimed the bulk of the waste and burning would divert too
much of a recyclable stream?</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>John</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><b>From:</b>
greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]<b> On Behalf
Of</b> Erin Rasmussen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> November-29-11 3:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Green Building'; 'Reuben Demling'; 'Gennaro
Brooks-Church'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Another Green Myth: Garbage
Incinerators Are Green Sources of Energy</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>With respect to burning waste to generate
power, it's a lot smarter to say that it depends a lot on the waste
being incinerated, and the way that it is being done. In general
burning municipal waste is in the USA unfeasible, but there are fuels
like waste wood and non-recyclable waste paper that can be burned
cleanly to generate electricity. And like people using wood to
heat their homes in efficient wood stoves, there are ways to burn
clean wastes (wood, some types of crop residues, waste paper) on a
municipal scale and there are places in Europe where they have several
years experience doing just that under much tougher environmental
rules than we have here.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>For some examples check out the
Gasification Discussion List, and its web site:</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><a
href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/"
>http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Cheers,</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Erin Rasmussen</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>BioEnergy Discussion List</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><a
href="mailto:erin@trmiles.com">erin@trmiles.com</a></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Greenbuilding mailing list<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.<span
></span>bioenergylists.org</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<x-sigsep><pre>--
</pre></x-sigsep>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1" color="#000000">"The
Earth and myself are of one mind. The measure of the land and
the</font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000">measure of our bodies are the same..."</font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"> <x-tab>
</x-tab
> <span
></span
> <span
></span> - Hinmaton
Yalatkit, Nez Perce chief</font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b>____________________________________________</b></font
></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="+1"
color="#000000"><b><br></b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="+1"
color="#000000"><b>R A I N
F O R E S
T R E
L I E F</b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="+1"
color="#000000"><b><br></b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><i>Sparing the World's
Rainforests from Consumption</i></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b><br></b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000">Rainforest Relief works to protect the world's
remaining tropical</font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1" color="#000000">and
temperate rainforests by reducing the demand for the
products</font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1" color="#000000">and
materials of rainforest destruction such as timber and
paper,</font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000">industrial agricultural products such as bananas,
beef, coffee,</font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000">chocolate and cut flowers, and mining
products</font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1" color="#000000">such
as oil, gold and aluminum.</font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b><br></b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1" color="#000000"><b>New
York, NY: (917) 543-4064</b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b>Portland, OR: (503) 236-3031</b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b>http://www.rainforestrelief.org</b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b>info@rainforestrelief.org</b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b>Church Street Station * PO Box 298 * NY, NY
10008-0298</b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b><br></b></font></div>
<div align="center"><font face="Skia" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b
>><><><><><><><><><span
></span
><><><><><><><><><<span
></span>><><><><><><</b></font></div
>
</body>
</html>