<div>John:</div><div><br></div><div>OK, put in a switch to turn off your energy draw when the utility is strained. But when the switch is turned back on let the triac thermostats assist in the ramp up. Triacs are a perfect match for resistance heating. They only put out what is necessary to match real-time heat loss without lagging or overshooting the thermostat's set point. A perfect balance. This means a more gradual and predictable ramp-up for the utilities with less overlap on the demand. And a more comfortable living space. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Respectfully</div><div><br></div>Richard <div><br></div><div><br>======================================================================<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 4:27 PM, John Straube <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jfstraube@gmail.com">jfstraube@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
A switch that turns off your energy draw -- cooling or heating-- is
perfect demand management.<br>
Whether in one house or a thousand, it reduces total demand and
shifts loads to other hours.<br>
A thousand houses makes a noticeable difference, one house makes a
little difference.<br>
Utility areas which have used this approach have reported
significant success with demand reduction. Works better if the
house is well-insulated, airtight and shaded.<br>
Smoothing out the demand on a few minute basis, ala Triac/SCR
controllers for baseboard, are by contrast useless as demand
reduction tools.<br>
OTOH, having houses that use electric heat limit their demand at
peak hours via some similar switching off arrangement would be
powerful.<div class="im"><br>
<br>
<br>
Dr John Straube, P.Eng.<br>
<a href="http://www.BuildingScience.com" target="_blank">www.BuildingScience.com</a><br>
<br>
<br></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
On 11-12-24 6:15 PM, Benjamin Pratt wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">> Around here, the electric
company will give you 10 percent off your <br>
> bill if you let them install a switch to tun off your central
air<br>
> for up to an hour if the grid is stressed. However, this
system has<br>
> never been called for since it was installed ten years ago.
John<br>
> Staube, How does this program fit into your argument? We
would've let<br>
> them install the switch, but don't have central air. The
people how<br>
> have central air whom i've told about the program, had never
heard of<br>
> it, and were hesitant to have the switch installed.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Richard Garbary
<a href="mailto:richard6@gmail.com" target="_blank"><richard6@gmail.com></a><br>
> wrote:<br>
>> Corwyn:<br>
>> <br>
>> Thank you for your response. You say "Randomness and
averaging are<br>
>> our friends, uniformity is the enemy." To me, averaging
and<br>
>> uniformity are our friends, randomness is the enemy.<br>
>> <br>
>> I think Lovins, et al explain it much better than I.<br>
>> <br>
>>
<a href="http://www.smallisprofitable.org/pdfs/SIP_PartTwoExcerpt.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.smallisprofitable.org/pdfs/SIP_PartTwoExcerpt.pdf</a><br>
>> <br>
>> Please refer to: Tutorial 1: Operational Fluctuations.
Pages 112 -<br>
>> 115<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> Richard<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>>
===============================================================================================<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> </span><br>
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Corwyn <a href="mailto:corwyn@midcoast.com" target="_blank"><corwyn@midcoast.com></a>
wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">>>> <br>
>>> On 12/24/2011 10:55 AM, Richard Garbary wrote:<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Corwyn:<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "First, outside temperature changes
slowly."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: The slower the acceleration and smaller
Delta T =<br>
>>>> fewer baseboards coming on simultaneously = less
demand on the<br>
>>>> grid. The greater the acceleration and bigger
Delta T = more<br>
>>>> baseboards coming on simultaneously = more demand
on the grid.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Only if the change is faster than the cycle time of
the heater.<br>
>>> Let's say that a baseboard heater in a hypothetical
house comes<br>
>>> on for 10 minutes every thirty minutes to maintain
the house for<br>
>>> a given outside temperature. If the outside
temperature changes<br>
>>> slower than than the inaccuracy of the thermostat, in
thirty<br>
>>> minutes, then the turn on time of the heater will be
essentially<br>
>>> random. Thus causing no peak load when averaged with
all the <br>
>>> others on the grid.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "Second, temperature changes happen at
different<br>
>>>> times in different areas."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: True, there's no question lots of
weather phenomenon<br>
>>>> is localized, but cold fronts usually affect
broader geographic<br>
>>>> regions<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> My point isn't that weather doesn't affect larger
regions, but<br>
>>> rather that it doesn't do so all at once. If a front
takes<br>
>>> longer than 30 minutes to pass through an entire grid
region,<br>
>>> then a front will have no peak effect on the grid.
Yes, the cold<br>
>>> will increase the electrical usage of the grid but
there will be<br>
>>> no east-ender effect. Imagine a front traveling such
that it <br>
>>> crosses the grid area in thirty minutes. Each 1/3 of
the region<br>
>>> turns it heat on when the front hits, for an extra 10
minutes<br>
>>> boost. The rolling across the area would mean that
each 1/3<br>
>>> would turn on their heat just as the preceding
section turned<br>
>>> theirs off. Perfectly flat demand curve. Anything
slower than<br>
>>> that, is essentially random. Only if fronts travel
faster than<br>
>>> the heat cycle time would there be a *possibility* of
a peak <br>
>>> event.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "Third, different houses react
differently to outside<br>
>>>> temperature changes."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: All else being equal, is there a house
that will<br>
>>>> require less energy for heating when the
temperature drops?<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Depends on what you mean by 'all else being equal'.
Two<br>
>>> identical houses, in identical locations, with
identical<br>
>>> occupants will require identical heating energy.
However, the<br>
>>> Canadians did that experiment and discovered that
occupants could<br>
>>> vary energy requirements by 40% (IIRC). So, no, all
things are<br>
>>> NEVER equal. The difference in actual cases I have
seen is over <br>
>>> 700% for single family dwellings in my area.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "All of those changes happen much
slower than the<br>
>>>> cycle time for baseboard heaters. Changing that
cycle time<br>
>>>> from a few minutes to a few seconds is going to
have a near<br>
>>>> zero affect on the peak load of thousands of
customers."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: The quicker the response and at lower
wattage per<br>
>>>> heating element guarantees less overlap of large
demand not<br>
>>>> only within the house but over many thousands of
households.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> If every house reacted instantly, the overlap would
increase not<br>
>>> decrease. Randomness and averaging are our friends,
uniformity is<br>
>>> the enemy. Of course, if you could instantaneously
adjust to<br>
>>> exactly the needed energy requirements of your heat
loss, your<br>
>>> house would have the lowest peaks, but on the level
of an entire<br>
>>> grid, no one would notice.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> If one really wanted to reduce the peaks in the grid,
there is a<br>
>>> much easier way. Just adjust the cost of electricity
to the<br>
>>> instantaneous cost, and transmit that cost to all the
smart<br>
>>> meters in the grid. The rest would take care of
itself.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Thank You Kindly,<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Corwyn<br>
>>> <br>
>>> -- Topher Belknap Green Fret Consulting Kermit didn't
know the<br>
>>> half of it... <a href="http://www.greenfret.com/" target="_blank">http://www.greenfret.com/</a>
<a href="mailto:topher@greenfret.com" target="_blank">topher@greenfret.com</a> <br>
>>> <a href="tel:%28207%29%20882-7652" value="+12078827652" target="_blank">(207) 882-7652</a><br>
>>> <br>
>>> _______________________________________________
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