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A switch that turns off your energy draw -- cooling or heating-- is
perfect demand management.<br>
Whether in one house or a thousand, it reduces total demand and
shifts loads to other hours.<br>
A thousand houses makes a noticeable difference, one house makes a
little difference.<br>
Utility areas which have used this approach have reported
significant success with demand reduction. Works better if the
house is well-insulated, airtight and shaded.<br>
Smoothing out the demand on a few minute basis, ala Triac/SCR
controllers for baseboard, are by contrast useless as demand
reduction tools.<br>
OTOH, having houses that use electric heat limit their demand at
peak hours via some similar switching off arrangement would be
powerful.<br>
<br>
<br>
Dr John Straube, P.Eng.<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BuildingScience.com">www.BuildingScience.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
On 11-12-24 6:15 PM, Benjamin Pratt wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">> Around here, the electric
company will give you 10 percent off your <br>
> bill if you let them install a switch to tun off your central
air<br>
> for up to an hour if the grid is stressed. However, this
system has<br>
> never been called for since it was installed ten years ago.
John<br>
> Staube, How does this program fit into your argument? We
would've let<br>
> them install the switch, but don't have central air. The
people how<br>
> have central air whom i've told about the program, had never
heard of<br>
> it, and were hesitant to have the switch installed.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Richard Garbary
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richard6@gmail.com"><richard6@gmail.com></a><br>
> wrote:<br>
>> Corwyn:<br>
>> <br>
>> Thank you for your response. You say "Randomness and
averaging are<br>
>> our friends, uniformity is the enemy." To me, averaging
and<br>
>> uniformity are our friends, randomness is the enemy.<br>
>> <br>
>> I think Lovins, et al explain it much better than I.<br>
>> <br>
>>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.smallisprofitable.org/pdfs/SIP_PartTwoExcerpt.pdf">http://www.smallisprofitable.org/pdfs/SIP_PartTwoExcerpt.pdf</a><br>
>> <br>
>> Please refer to: Tutorial 1: Operational Fluctuations.
Pages 112 -<br>
>> 115<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> Richard<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>>
===============================================================================================<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> </span><br>
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Corwyn <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:corwyn@midcoast.com"><corwyn@midcoast.com></a>
wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">>>> <br>
>>> On 12/24/2011 10:55 AM, Richard Garbary wrote:<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Corwyn:<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "First, outside temperature changes
slowly."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: The slower the acceleration and smaller
Delta T =<br>
>>>> fewer baseboards coming on simultaneously = less
demand on the<br>
>>>> grid. The greater the acceleration and bigger
Delta T = more<br>
>>>> baseboards coming on simultaneously = more demand
on the grid.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Only if the change is faster than the cycle time of
the heater.<br>
>>> Let's say that a baseboard heater in a hypothetical
house comes<br>
>>> on for 10 minutes every thirty minutes to maintain
the house for<br>
>>> a given outside temperature. If the outside
temperature changes<br>
>>> slower than than the inaccuracy of the thermostat, in
thirty<br>
>>> minutes, then the turn on time of the heater will be
essentially<br>
>>> random. Thus causing no peak load when averaged with
all the <br>
>>> others on the grid.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "Second, temperature changes happen at
different<br>
>>>> times in different areas."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: True, there's no question lots of
weather phenomenon<br>
>>>> is localized, but cold fronts usually affect
broader geographic<br>
>>>> regions<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> My point isn't that weather doesn't affect larger
regions, but<br>
>>> rather that it doesn't do so all at once. If a front
takes<br>
>>> longer than 30 minutes to pass through an entire grid
region,<br>
>>> then a front will have no peak effect on the grid.
Yes, the cold<br>
>>> will increase the electrical usage of the grid but
there will be<br>
>>> no east-ender effect. Imagine a front traveling such
that it <br>
>>> crosses the grid area in thirty minutes. Each 1/3 of
the region<br>
>>> turns it heat on when the front hits, for an extra 10
minutes<br>
>>> boost. The rolling across the area would mean that
each 1/3<br>
>>> would turn on their heat just as the preceding
section turned<br>
>>> theirs off. Perfectly flat demand curve. Anything
slower than<br>
>>> that, is essentially random. Only if fronts travel
faster than<br>
>>> the heat cycle time would there be a *possibility* of
a peak <br>
>>> event.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "Third, different houses react
differently to outside<br>
>>>> temperature changes."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: All else being equal, is there a house
that will<br>
>>>> require less energy for heating when the
temperature drops?<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Depends on what you mean by 'all else being equal'.
Two<br>
>>> identical houses, in identical locations, with
identical<br>
>>> occupants will require identical heating energy.
However, the<br>
>>> Canadians did that experiment and discovered that
occupants could<br>
>>> vary energy requirements by 40% (IIRC). So, no, all
things are<br>
>>> NEVER equal. The difference in actual cases I have
seen is over <br>
>>> 700% for single family dwellings in my area.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "All of those changes happen much
slower than the<br>
>>>> cycle time for baseboard heaters. Changing that
cycle time<br>
>>>> from a few minutes to a few seconds is going to
have a near<br>
>>>> zero affect on the peak load of thousands of
customers."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: The quicker the response and at lower
wattage per<br>
>>>> heating element guarantees less overlap of large
demand not<br>
>>>> only within the house but over many thousands of
households.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> If every house reacted instantly, the overlap would
increase not<br>
>>> decrease. Randomness and averaging are our friends,
uniformity is<br>
>>> the enemy. Of course, if you could instantaneously
adjust to<br>
>>> exactly the needed energy requirements of your heat
loss, your<br>
>>> house would have the lowest peaks, but on the level
of an entire<br>
>>> grid, no one would notice.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> If one really wanted to reduce the peaks in the grid,
there is a<br>
>>> much easier way. Just adjust the cost of electricity
to the<br>
>>> instantaneous cost, and transmit that cost to all the
smart<br>
>>> meters in the grid. The rest would take care of
itself.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Thank You Kindly,<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Corwyn<br>
>>> <br>
>>> -- Topher Belknap Green Fret Consulting Kermit didn't
know the<br>
>>> half of it... <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.greenfret.com/">http://www.greenfret.com/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:topher@greenfret.com">topher@greenfret.com</a> <br>
>>> (207) 882-7652<br>
>>> <br>
>>> _______________________________________________
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