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<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">If the goal was to use
technology for its "cool factor", then by all means, do what you
suggest. <br>
But dont expect it to do things that it wont, or lead others to
believe it will.</font><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">None
of the individual load smoothing makes a difference when many
loads are grouped together.</font><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif"> Alas, I apparently cant help you correctly understand
how triacs works and others on the list have tried. </font><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"></font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><br>
Get a tight tolerance thermostat and you wont over shoot, have
wandering setpoints etc.<br>
</font>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="0">Dr John Straube, P.Eng.
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BuildingScience.com">www.BuildingScience.com</a></pre>
<br>
On 11-12-29 5:19 PM, Richard Garbary wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALt3TQE3X6xB8x2WN9gMn1J-d0YvagH61aTkpR_B_wFOfMJ24w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>John:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>OK, put in a switch to turn off your energy draw when the
utility is strained. But when the switch is turned back on let
the triac thermostats assist in the ramp up. Triacs are a
perfect match for resistance heating. They only put out what is
necessary to match real-time heat loss without lagging or
overshooting the thermostat's set point. A perfect balance. This
means a more gradual and predictable ramp-up for the utilities
with less overlap on the demand. And a more comfortable living
space. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Respectfully</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Richard
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
======================================================================<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 4:27 PM, John
Straube <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jfstraube@gmail.com">jfstraube@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> A switch that turns
off your energy draw -- cooling or heating-- is perfect
demand management.<br>
Whether in one house or a thousand, it reduces total
demand and shifts loads to other hours.<br>
A thousand houses makes a noticeable difference, one house
makes a little difference.<br>
Utility areas which have used this approach have reported
significant success with demand reduction. Works better
if the house is well-insulated, airtight and shaded.<br>
Smoothing out the demand on a few minute basis, ala
Triac/SCR controllers for baseboard, are by contrast
useless as demand reduction tools.<br>
OTOH, having houses that use electric heat limit their
demand at peak hours via some similar switching off
arrangement would be powerful.
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
<br>
Dr John Straube, P.Eng.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.BuildingScience.com" target="_blank">www.BuildingScience.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5"> On 11-12-24 6:15 PM, Benjamin Pratt
wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">> Around here,
the electric company will give you 10 percent off
your <br>
> bill if you let them install a switch to tun
off your central air<br>
> for up to an hour if the grid is stressed.
However, this system has<br>
> never been called for since it was installed
ten years ago. John<br>
> Staube, How does this program fit into your
argument? We would've let<br>
> them install the switch, but don't have central
air. The people how<br>
> have central air whom i've told about the
program, had never heard of<br>
> it, and were hesitant to have the switch
installed.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Richard
Garbary <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:richard6@gmail.com" target="_blank"><richard6@gmail.com></a><br>
> wrote:<br>
>> Corwyn:<br>
>> <br>
>> Thank you for your response. You say
"Randomness and averaging are<br>
>> our friends, uniformity is the enemy." To
me, averaging and<br>
>> uniformity are our friends, randomness is
the enemy.<br>
>> <br>
>> I think Lovins, et al explain it much
better than I.<br>
>> <br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.smallisprofitable.org/pdfs/SIP_PartTwoExcerpt.pdf"
target="_blank">http://www.smallisprofitable.org/pdfs/SIP_PartTwoExcerpt.pdf</a><br>
>> <br>
>> Please refer to: Tutorial 1: Operational
Fluctuations. Pages 112 -<br>
>> 115<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> Richard<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>>
===============================================================================================<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> </span><br>
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Corwyn <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:corwyn@midcoast.com" target="_blank"><corwyn@midcoast.com></a>
wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">>>> <br>
>>> On 12/24/2011 10:55 AM, Richard Garbary
wrote:<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Corwyn:<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "First, outside
temperature changes slowly."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: The slower the
acceleration and smaller Delta T =<br>
>>>> fewer baseboards coming on
simultaneously = less demand on the<br>
>>>> grid. The greater the acceleration
and bigger Delta T = more<br>
>>>> baseboards coming on simultaneously
= more demand on the grid.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Only if the change is faster than the
cycle time of the heater.<br>
>>> Let's say that a baseboard heater in a
hypothetical house comes<br>
>>> on for 10 minutes every thirty minutes
to maintain the house for<br>
>>> a given outside temperature. If the
outside temperature changes<br>
>>> slower than than the inaccuracy of the
thermostat, in thirty<br>
>>> minutes, then the turn on time of the
heater will be essentially<br>
>>> random. Thus causing no peak load when
averaged with all the <br>
>>> others on the grid.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "Second, temperature
changes happen at different<br>
>>>> times in different areas."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: True, there's no question
lots of weather phenomenon<br>
>>>> is localized, but cold fronts
usually affect broader geographic<br>
>>>> regions<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> My point isn't that weather doesn't
affect larger regions, but<br>
>>> rather that it doesn't do so all at
once. If a front takes<br>
>>> longer than 30 minutes to pass through
an entire grid region,<br>
>>> then a front will have no peak effect
on the grid. Yes, the cold<br>
>>> will increase the electrical usage of
the grid but there will be<br>
>>> no east-ender effect. Imagine a front
traveling such that it <br>
>>> crosses the grid area in thirty
minutes. Each 1/3 of the region<br>
>>> turns it heat on when the front hits,
for an extra 10 minutes<br>
>>> boost. The rolling across the area
would mean that each 1/3<br>
>>> would turn on their heat just as the
preceding section turned<br>
>>> theirs off. Perfectly flat demand
curve. Anything slower than<br>
>>> that, is essentially random. Only if
fronts travel faster than<br>
>>> the heat cycle time would there be a
*possibility* of a peak <br>
>>> event.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "Third, different houses
react differently to outside<br>
>>>> temperature changes."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: All else being equal, is
there a house that will<br>
>>>> require less energy for heating
when the temperature drops?<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Depends on what you mean by 'all else
being equal'. Two<br>
>>> identical houses, in identical
locations, with identical<br>
>>> occupants will require identical
heating energy. However, the<br>
>>> Canadians did that experiment and
discovered that occupants could<br>
>>> vary energy requirements by 40% (IIRC).
So, no, all things are<br>
>>> NEVER equal. The difference in actual
cases I have seen is over <br>
>>> 700% for single family dwellings in my
area.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>> Argument: "All of those changes
happen much slower than the<br>
>>>> cycle time for baseboard heaters.
Changing that cycle time<br>
>>>> from a few minutes to a few seconds
is going to have a near<br>
>>>> zero affect on the peak load of
thousands of customers."<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Response: The quicker the response
and at lower wattage per<br>
>>>> heating element guarantees less
overlap of large demand not<br>
>>>> only within the house but over many
thousands of households.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> If every house reacted instantly, the
overlap would increase not<br>
>>> decrease. Randomness and averaging are
our friends, uniformity is<br>
>>> the enemy. Of course, if you could
instantaneously adjust to<br>
>>> exactly the needed energy requirements
of your heat loss, your<br>
>>> house would have the lowest peaks, but
on the level of an entire<br>
>>> grid, no one would notice.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> If one really wanted to reduce the
peaks in the grid, there is a<br>
>>> much easier way. Just adjust the cost
of electricity to the<br>
>>> instantaneous cost, and transmit that
cost to all the smart<br>
>>> meters in the grid. The rest would take
care of itself.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Thank You Kindly,<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Corwyn<br>
>>> <br>
>>> -- Topher Belknap Green Fret Consulting
Kermit didn't know the<br>
>>> half of it... <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.greenfret.com/" target="_blank">http://www.greenfret.com/</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:topher@greenfret.com" target="_blank">topher@greenfret.com</a>
<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28207%29%20882-7652"
value="+12078827652" target="_blank">(207)
882-7652</a><br>
>>> <br>
>>>
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