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<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>Thanks John Bone for responding to my query. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
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style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>I thought of insulation above the floor. For me, I could live
with a lower ceiling height. However, I am tasked with satisfying my
client. It is only an 8' ceiling to begin with. Since below the
floor would be ventilated with outdoor air, it would have a lower Winter
temperature. Though the first inch would achieve the air tightening
benefit, the R value would still be low. Using Isocyanurate, 2" could give
only an R14+-. I use the above the floor strategy for insulating
existing concrete slabs with new wood floor above. In that case, the
ground temp is much higher in the winter than outdoor air.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>If this is how it is commonly done in UK, I have these questions
about your experience. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>In hot weather do you cool your houses with AC? If so, does the
shade and cooler surface of the bottom of the floor result in pulling in the
warmer air into the crawl space? Does this ever result in lowering the air
temp to dew point? You say the ventilation is sufficient to keep wood
dry. I would like to understand why. My impression of UK is that the
climate is fairly maritime (humid).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>Eli </SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></FONT>----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johnbone@gateshead.plus.com
href="mailto:johnbone@gateshead.plus.com">john bone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Green Building'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 11, 2012 11:41
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating
shallow crawl spaces</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=blue size=3 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hi,<BR>The English
(UK) solution to this not uncommon situation would be to insulate above the
floor, leaving the timber to age in a ventilated space, which will protect it
from damp build up.<BR><BR>John Bone, MBEng, BSc Hons<BR>UK Building Code
Official (1974-2009)<BR>UK Fire Risk Assessor
(2009-ongoing)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=blue size=3 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
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face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN-US>
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold"
lang=EN-US>From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-US> <A
href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>elitalking<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> 11 April 2012 16:14<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Green</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">Building</st1:PlaceType></st1:place></st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Greenbuilding] Insulating
shallow crawl spaces</SPAN></FONT><SPAN
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">I have a deep energy retrofit project on an old framed
house where there was no excavation for the crawls space. The result is
that the front, downhill side of the house has adequate room for installing
insulation. However, much of the house has less (18”-24”). The
floor condition is good enough that we are not considering removing the
floor. The room height is insufficient to consider adding insulation to
the top of the floor. How do I insulate the floor.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">For the rest of the house, we are planning on
installing new ceiling rafters parallel to the roof pitch to define 14” space
to fill with open cell foam. We are installing furring strips installed
with 2” gap in front of old wood siding. We are adding continuous 2.5”
closed cell foam to fill the gap. The old plaster is gutted. We
can fill with adhered cellulose or open cell foam in the 2x4 framed
walls. On another similar job, I came to the inside of the foundation to
continue closed cell foam thermal barrier and came across the ground with
closed cell foam. All of that was covered with the high cost spray
ignition barrier. In hind site, with that job, I would have preferred to
use rigid board insulation such as XPS. I would create a ground plane
with combination of digging high spots and filling low spots with crush and
run (small gravel), lay one layer of extruded board to provide puncture
protection, a layer of poly for continuous vapor barrier and another foam
layer. I put osb on top for cheap ignition barrier that protects the
foam from traffic damage. The whole house is provided with HRV for fresh
air. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">However, this house does not have adequate space to
work in. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Do I need to hand excavate to a minimum clearance for
the work? If we did that, I could install either of the approaches describe
above. I was wondering if I could fill the whole space with open
cell foam. I realize that 1/2 # open cell foam is not a vapor barrier,
therefore likely not a good idea. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">I am encouraging my client to use a mini split heat
pump to avoid the need for ductwork in the crawl space. Therefore, I can
define the thermal barrier at the floor plane instead of the ground.
Because we would still have moisture issues below, I am leaning towards ground
insulation. However, a closed cell foam application to the bottom of the
framing could provide the vapor barrier to protect the wood. Below that
the stone and concrete surfaces are not vulnerable to humidity.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Right now, I consider the hand excavation to be the
most likely scenario. Because the mini split will cool the house, I am against
the traditional ventilated crawl spaces with fiberglass batts in floor framing
because the cool shadow will pull in hot humid air and cool it to dew point
creating humidity problems. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">This is a common situation with old house. I
hope our list can offer some good ideas for cost affective ways of upgrading
to a high standard. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Eli <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=5 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><A
href="http://www.conservationarchitect.net/">www.conservationarchitect.net</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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