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<style type="text/css">"body { font-family:'Times New Roman'; font-size:17px"}</style><div>Hi,<br>In the UK, for example, today's Central London air temp is 14-16 C and we all think that this is a nice warm day. So the use of A/C (Air Conditioning) in houses is just totally unheard of,... no one has it. <br>Frankly, if you see Air Con on a home then you know that person is a migrant.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I live 30 miles out on a commuter rail line (30 mins into Euston, London - $50 a day, including hop-on hop-off all public transport (bus, rail, water-bus, tube, trams, surface rail) in Greater London.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Here in Leighton Buzzard (Bedfordshire), it is 12 - 14 C (at 10am) and again I feel no need for a wooly jumper or to put on my homes central heating. The coldest day of the current year (for my town) so far has been minus 10 C (but central london has only just had minus 1 C).</div><div>However, I am working from home today - I work as a Fire Risk Assessor and Building Code Advisor at a not-for-profit social housing provider (who have 16,000 flats and street homes in their stock, with 1100 blocks of apartments).</div><div><br></div><div>I own my own home, it is "new" (2005) and has 12 inches of Mineral Fiber Roll/Quilt in the roof space (above the ceiling), and 4 inches of
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Isocyanurate in a solid floor (ground bearing) on a reinforced raft concrete foundation. The external walls are 4 inch brick with 3 inches of insulation (mineral wool) in a filled cavity, and an internal lightweight concrete block leaf (4 inch thick), with a 1/2 inch dry-rock wall panel board (plasterboard) on dabs (1/2 thick) of plaster adhesive, to give a further air gap. <br>By law (Building Code 2000) the windows and door are all UPVC double glazed ("k" glass) (ISO 'U' value 1.9 W/m2K).</span>
</div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">By law (Building Code 2000) these double glazed Doors and Windows are limited to an area less than 15% of the homes floor area.<br></span></div><div>
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">By law (Building Code 2000) t</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">he House has to be less than 10 M3/M2/S for air-tightness and had to be pressure tested.<br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">This is indeed a long way from a Passive House, but is current fair practice. Todays (2010 Building Code) is now building to 25% higher thermal insulation standards.<br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Gas Boilers have to be A or AA rated - beter than 90% efficient. Forced Air heating is not used here. Everyone's Central Heating uses hot water radiators or (rare but growing) hot water underfloor heating loops.<br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">If your home is off-grid boilers use LPG or Oil - a few new houses are using air-to-air heat pumps, and a few are using ground source heat pumps, but you are talking about 1% of new homes. There is no 'tax breaks' for building a higher efficiency home. <br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">This may change as the national government is talking of a "green deal", where efficient boiler retro-fitting, extra insulation and even photo-voltaic panels, would be funded by the local energy companies and the home-owner would be locked in to their fuel use in return for 10, 15, or longer years.<br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">We expect our buildings to get damp and we ventilate and limit moisture movement, to protect the building fabric. Really Hot days (over 20 C) are rare perhaps 30 a year, so A/C is not cost effective, nor required.<br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">In the Heat Island of Central London, A/C is used by offices & shops - but their are strict limits on its use (Building Code) natural ventilation, and non A/C mechanical ventilation is far easier to get approval for.<br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Most older houses in England (UK) have no underfloor insulation and have suspended timber floor and underfloor natural air venting to allow the house to dry during the summer. The UK Building Codes have only required ground level floor thermal insulation since 2000. There was no thermal insulation requirements in the UK Building Codes before 1976.<br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Central London (the six inner London boroughs) have only had Building Codes requiring thermal insulation for houses and buildings since 1985.<br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Yes, no where in the UK is more than 78 miles from some part of our surrounding sea coastline. However, we do not see ourselves as being in a very humid climate. <br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">The EU (European Union) Parliament has pushed high insulation measures and the UK national government is followed these in recent revisions to the UK building codes. The EU has also now effectively banned the sale of high energy filament light bulbs.<br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">I hope this helps.<br><br>John Bone, MBEng, BSc Hons<br>Fire Risk Assessor & Building Code Advisor<br></span></div><div><br></div><div>
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 15:04:09 +0100, elitalking <elitalking@rockbridge.net> wrote:<br></div><br><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0.80ex; border-left: #0000FF 2px solid; padding-left: 1ex">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Thanks John Bone for responding to my query. </span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">I thought of insulation above the floor. For me, I could live
with a lower ceiling height. However, I am tasked with satisfying my
client. It is only an 8' ceiling to begin with. Since below the
floor would be ventilated with outdoor air, it would have a lower Winter
temperature. Though the first inch would achieve the air tightening
benefit, the R value would still be low. Using Isocyanurate, 2" could give
only an R14+-. I use the above the floor strategy for insulating
existing concrete slabs with new wood floor above. In that case, the
ground temp is much higher in the winter than outdoor air.
</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">If this is how it is commonly done in UK, I have these questions
about your experience. </span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">In hot weather do you cool your houses with AC? If so, does the
shade and cooler surface of the bottom of the floor result in pulling in the
warmer air into the crawl space? Does this ever result in lowering the air
temp to dew point? You say the ventilation is sufficient to keep wood
dry. I would like to understand why. My impression of UK is that the
climate is fairly maritime (humid).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span></span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Eli </span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"> </p></font>----- Original Message -----
</div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="johnbone@gateshead.plus.com" href="mailto:johnbone@gateshead.plus.com">john bone</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Green Building'</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 11, 2012 11:41
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating
shallow crawl spaces</div>
<div><br></div>
<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" size="3" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hi,<br>The English
(UK) solution to this not uncommon situation would be to insulate above the
floor, leaving the timber to age in a ventilated space, which will protect it
from damp build up.<br><br>John Bone, MBEng, BSc Hons<br>UK Building Code
Official (1974-2009)<br>UK Fire Risk Assessor
(2009-ongoing)</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" size="3" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang="EN-US">
<hr tabindex="-1" align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang="EN-US"> <a href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>elitalking<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> 11 April 2012 16:14<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <st1:personname w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Green</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Building</st1:placetype></st1:place></st1:personname><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> [Greenbuilding] Insulating
shallow crawl spaces</span></font></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">I have a deep energy retrofit project on an old framed
house where there was no excavation for the crawls space. The result is
that the front, downhill side of the house has adequate room for installing
insulation. However, much of the house has less (18”-24”). The
floor condition is good enough that we are not considering removing the
floor. The room height is insufficient to consider adding insulation to
the top of the floor. How do I insulate the floor.
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">For the rest of the house, we are planning on
installing new ceiling rafters parallel to the roof pitch to define 14” space
to fill with open cell foam. We are installing furring strips installed
with 2” gap in front of old wood siding. We are adding continuous 2.5”
closed cell foam to fill the gap. The old plaster is gutted. We
can fill with adhered cellulose or open cell foam in the 2x4 framed
walls. On another similar job, I came to the inside of the foundation to
continue closed cell foam thermal barrier and came across the ground with
closed cell foam. All of that was covered with the high cost spray
ignition barrier. In hind site, with that job, I would have preferred to
use rigid board insulation such as XPS. I would create a ground plane
with combination of digging high spots and filling low spots with crush and
run (small gravel), lay one layer of extruded board to provide puncture
protection, a layer of poly for continuous vapor barrier and another foam
layer. I put osb on top for cheap ignition barrier that protects the
foam from traffic damage. The whole house is provided with HRV for fresh
air. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">However, this house does not have adequate space to
work in. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Do I need to hand excavate to a minimum clearance for
the work? If we did that, I could install either of the approaches describe
above. I was wondering if I could fill the whole space with open
cell foam. I realize that 1/2 # open cell foam is not a vapor barrier,
therefore likely not a good idea. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">I am encouraging my client to use a mini split heat
pump to avoid the need for ductwork in the crawl space. Therefore, I can
define the thermal barrier at the floor plane instead of the ground.
Because we would still have moisture issues below, I am leaning towards ground
insulation. However, a closed cell foam application to the bottom of the
framing could provide the vapor barrier to protect the wood. Below that
the stone and concrete surfaces are not vulnerable to humidity.
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Right now, I consider the hand excavation to be the
most likely scenario. Because the mini split will cool the house, I am against
the traditional ventilated crawl spaces with fiberglass batts in floor framing
because the cool shadow will pull in hot humid air and cool it to dew point
creating humidity problems. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">This is a common situation with old house. I
hope our list can offer some good ideas for cost affective ways of upgrading
to a high standard. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Eli </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt"><a href="http://www.conservationarchitect.net/">www.conservationarchitect.net</a></span></font></p></div></div>
<p>
</p><hr>
_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding
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page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</blockquote></blockquote><br><br><br><div id="M2Signature"><div>-- </div><div><div>John Bone, MBEng, BSc Hons,<br><font color="#00ff00"><small><font face="Viner Hand ITC">Home Email: JohnBone@gateshead.plus.com</font></small></font></div><div>Sent from my 'Laptop' Email:<strong> <font color="#ff8040">JohnBone@Gateshead.plus.com {PlusNet}</font></strong></div><div>Using Opera's revolutionary email client: <a href="http://www.opera.com/mail/"><small>http://www.opera.com/mail/</small></a></div></div></div></body></html>