<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [Greenbuilding] Climate breakdown is here. (polar ice melt)</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:11pt'>At the risk of drawing ire from the physicist audience, the icecaps over water represent massive volumes of locked up water, so when they melt, they also add water volume that moves around the planet, along with all the land-based glaciers. Potentially more importantly, it changes salinity, jet stream, the Thermohaline circulation (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation</a>), and reflectance back into the sky; and may be releasing methane and other GHGs that have been locked up for a few million years. It’s all these feedback loops that are scaring the bejeezus out of some scientists.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 8/31/12 8:32 AM, "Eli Talking" <<a href="elitalking@rockbridge.net">elitalking@rockbridge.net</a>> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="5"><FONT FACE="Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:18pt'>My understanding is the reason water ice has a higher volume than water liquid is that it entraps air in the crystal structure. My hunch is that if you subtracted the volume of gas air within the ice structure, the volume of the water would be less than the liquid equivalent by weight. <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE="Times New Roman"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14pt'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE="5"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:18pt'>Eli <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:10pt'> <BR>
<B>From:</B> Steven Tjiang <<a href="mailto:steve@tjiang.org">mailto:steve@tjiang.org</a>> <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:55 AM<BR>
<B>To:</B> Green Building <<a href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> <BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Climate breakdown is here. (polar ice melt)<BR>
<BR>
I don't think it's the ice in the water that will raise sea levels; It's all the ice that isn't in the water (i.e. Green land and Antarctica). Also if the sea ice is melting it also likely the landlocked ice is also melting and thus adding more water to the "tub". <BR>
<BR>
---- Steve (KZ6LSD)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 9:47 AM, Joe Killian <<a href="kaa-ajk@sonic.net">kaa-ajk@sonic.net</a>> wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:10pt'> <BR>
<BR>
Classic trick high school question:<BR>
Fill a glass with ice, add water to the brim (top of ice will float higher). Let it melt. Does it overflow?<BR>
Answer: No. The weight (mass) of water displaced by the floating ice is the same as the weight of all the ice, which is also the same volume of the displaced water once melted.<BR>
So melting sea ice doesn't raise (or lower) sea level.<BR>
The fresh water added to the ocean, however, may well accelerate the feared effect of the melting Greenland ice adding fresh water to the North Atlantic and potentially (inevitably?) changing the course of the Gulf Stream. Whereupon northern Europe's climate becomes more like Siberia's climate.<BR>
Hang on....<BR>
Joe<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 8/29/2012 8:32 AM, Alan Abrams wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:10pt'>if salt water is more dense than fresh--then when the ice pack melts, does this not result in a rise in sea level? No, wait, ice contracts when it melts. But most of a floating mass of ice is submerged, and the volume of the exposed mass is equal to the increase in volume as a result of freezing...<BR>
<BR>
...ouch. my head hurts.<BR>
<BR>
-AA<BR>
<BR>
Alan Abrams<BR>
<B>Abrams Design Build LLC<BR>
</B><I>design for purposeful living<BR>
</I><BR>
6411 Orchard Avenue Suite 102<BR>
Takoma Park, MD 20912<BR>
office 301-270-NET- ZERO (301-270-6380 <tel:%28301-270-6380> ) <BR>
fax 301-270-1466 <tel:301-270-1466> <BR>
cell 202-437-8583 <tel:202-437-8583> <BR>
<a href="alan@abramsdesignbuild.com">alan@abramsdesignbuild.com</a><BR>
www.abramsdesignbuild.com <<a href="http://www.abramsdesignbuild.com/">http://www.abramsdesignbuild.com/</a>> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
Greenbuilding mailing list<BR>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>
<a href="Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><BR>
<BR>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:10pt'><BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
Greenbuilding mailing list<BR>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>
<a href="Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><BR>
<BR>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:10pt'> <BR>
<HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="3" WIDTH="100%">_______________________________________________<BR>
Greenbuilding mailing list<BR>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>
<a href="Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><BR>
<BR>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:11pt'><BR>
<HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="3" WIDTH="95%"></SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Consolas, Courier New, Courier"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:10pt'>_______________________________________________<BR>
Greenbuilding mailing list<BR>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>
<a href="Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><BR>
<BR>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>