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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">What do I think is incorrect and misleading? For a
start<br>
1. long screws are structural. <br>
2. you cannot screw a long screw into an assembly without
torqueing off the head<br>
3. you cant find #10 screws in long lengths<br>
4. fastening is the over riding cost for attaching foam through
furring to wood frame walls<br>
<br>
How does this impede progress?<br>
A major improvement in durability and energy performance can be
achieved by applying exterior insulation to wood and steel
framed buildings. <br>
Unfounded or out-of-context statements like 1 thru 4 cause
people to not attempt this technique. They dont even try. Once
someone builds a few houses, often just part of a single one, it
becomes clear that 1 to 4 are not true. I have seen this happen
repeatedly over the last decade. People in workshops, seminars,
conferences, and design offices regularily say these things
(another common one is "a few screws cant hold up "heavy" siding
like fibre cement). I have been showing case studies and doing
demonstrations for more than 10 years to answer these types of
questions. When people actually get around to trying this,
wether architect, code official, contractor, trade, or home
handyman, those objections go away. Because they are not true.
This is the reason I care so much about the topic and why it frustrates
me.<br>
<br>
This thread was not about EIFS. It was about Bill Allens
question on fastening foam and furring to walls. I mention EIFS
and roofing since they make and use the fasteners required for
attach foam. You dont need washers when attaching wood furring
through foam. So dont buy the washer. Hence the prices I
quoted are valid. You can try and use adhesives for attaching
siding to a wall, but I dont think it will work, and wont
comment further till I try it.<br>
<br>
Fewer large and more expensive screws at wider spacings can work
to hold up the cladding, but the suction wind loads tend to
cause the furring strip (1x3 and 1x4) to fail in bending between
widely spaced screws. You dont need a big screw for spacings
of 2 to 3 square feet of area. Once you go beyond that, you get
to vertical spacings of 24 to 36" (and yes 1/4" and 5/16" dia
screws are needed at that spacing) but then the suction loads of
the cladding cause 1x furring to fail in bending. So you would
have to use 2x furring. Technically fine (36"x24" spacings of
5/16" screws will work) but the cost and resource use of 2x3 or
2x4 furring tends to argue against it. <br>
<br>
Again, I want to emphasize, furring strips through 2, 3, 4" and
more of foam has been done in dozens of states and many
provinces on hundreds of projects (that I know about, likely
much much more) and this is no more, often less, challenging
than figuring out how to attach drywall to framing. The ONLY
thing that is difficult to do is find the screws at a retail
level. It regularly is challenging for people who come across
the idea for the first time to understand and believe the idea.<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-signature">Dr John Straube, P.Eng. <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BuildingScience.com">www.BuildingScience.com</a><br>
<br>
</div>
On 12-11-15 1:04 PM, John Salmen wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What
is incorrect and false and impedes what kind of progress?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
am not talking about mechanically fastening foam we are
talking about fastening wood against foam through to
framing. EIFS screws and washers like dekfast and windlock
are great for attaching foam (if you need to) but you need
the washer so still about .35 per screw <u>and </u>washer
– and it is usually minimum1 screw per square foot for eifs.
That is the equivalent cost of 2” of eps (I pay about .18
per board foot for eps). I am not sure what is progressive
about thousands of screws and plastic washers - I prefer
foam adhesives<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">So
for mechanically fastening battens or wood components
against foam ONE large head structural screw at framing
intervals at a cost of .30 per screw is I think a pretty
responsible approach (don’t buy them at home despot). And
yes screw heads snapping or screws bending is a common
problem when embedding a long low strength metal screw
1-1/2” into spf framing. And I am not sure why there would
excuses if there wasn’t a perceived problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> John Straube [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:jfstraube@gmail.com">mailto:jfstraube@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> November-15-12 6:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Salmen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:george@houseisasystem.com">george@houseisasystem.com</a>; 'Green Building'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulation fasteners<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">John,
much of what you say is not correct. This bothers me
because I routinely hear these false claims made, and this
incorrect information impedes progress in making good
energy efficient buildings (something I know you care
about).<br>
<b>You can get long screws that are not "structural
screws".</b> I know, because we and many others
installing thick layers of foam insulation and have been
doing this for years. There must be a few dozen case
studies alone on our website.<br>
Yes, long structural screws are what you find at Home
Depot, but these expensive and problematic in a number of
ways.<br>
It is quite possible to get #10 or #12 screws in lengths
of 6" and up. #10 is typically only available to about 6"
length, and then #12 to about 12 or 14" long, and then you
are up to #14 / 1/4" dia for lengths up to 20" or so. We
regularily find that a #12x6" can be cheaper than a #10x6"
and thus use them, but #10 is what we have always tested
in the lab because they are the smallest available and
hence the most flexible with the lowest pullout loads.
Their heads DO NOT torque off when used to attach foam.
They are NOT intended for screwing through solid wood but
through insulation, which is why they work perfectly
well. Millions of 6" long or longer screws are installed
every year through foam in the commercial low-slope
roofing and EIFS industry (see for example Wind-lok for
#10x6" long). This is the first stop if you are looking
for long thin screws that have corrosion resistance, are
easy to install and affordable. These products in these
building niches all have a long track record of being
installed by the thousands without problems of torquing
off heads, driver slippage, bending, or whatever other
excuses I have heard. They have been designed for
embedding about 1 to 1.5" in wood after screwing through
4-12" of roof or EIFS insulation. What is not easy for
individuals and small contractors is finding these screws
because they are typically carried by larger supply houses
and commercial sales outlets. If more people start super
insulating their houses, I am pretty sure the fastener
industry will respond by marketing their roof screws as
wall screws and the problem will go away.<br>
<br>
The HeadLok screws are great for many structural
applications, but I think these are used for attaching
foam and furring only because they are available at retail
outlets. There are quite nice, but are usually twice as
expensive as the alternatives (40 cents each and up), and
often three times the cost retail (eg we get supply house
prices of 12 cents on a #10x6" and the contractor tells us
that HeadLok or GRK cost $150 for a 250 pack). <br>
<br>
<b>The screws are also NOT the most expensive part of the
assembly.</b> Not even close.<br>
If you purchase relatively heavy 6" long screws from, say,
here <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=9221">http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=9221</a><br>
They cost maybe 20 cents each (these are #12-14 screws)
Not the cheapest source but not bad. Often available for
15 cents. If you use one screw every 12" vertically and
24" horizontally (pretty conservative), that is 1 screw
per 2 square feet or about 10 cents/square foot at 20
cents each. When labour is added, the screw might be 3
times as expensive (30 cents /square foot).<br>
4" of polyiso will cost something in the order of $2 to
$2.50 per square foot, making the screw less than 5% of
the cost of materials for the exterior insulation (adding
the cost of furring strips changes little). 4" of EPS will
be about $1.50. With labour, the screw is still around
10% or less.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dr John Straube, P.Eng. <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.BuildingScience.com">www.BuildingScience.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 12-11-14 11:10 PM, John Salmen wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>When you get into long screws they are structural screws - equivalent to a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>3/8" bolt (actually better). For sure they are overkill but that is where<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>eng. crosses practicality. When you increase length on anything the design<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>requirements for actually getting the screw into the material override the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>design criteria for loading. The reason being that you cannot screw a long<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>softmetal screw into an assembly without torqueing off the head. - I don't<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>even think you can even find a #10 standard soft metal screw in long lengths<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>anymore - I remember putting an order in from one manuf. a decade ago and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>half the screws were thrown away from having heads torqued off. 1/4" and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>3/8" lag bolts would also self destruct far too often in application to make<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>them practical for a load that an 1/8" of metal would carry. We are talking<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>about crews that have to install a lot of bolts/screws in a day and wasting<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>their time with defective material is an overriding consideration.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Headlok screws that I mentioned will cost about .30 per for 6" and about .50<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>per for 8" and each screw will do what is supposed to do. They drive in<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>quickly and perfectly each time. They have a large wafer head equivalent to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a washer so one screw generally takes the place of at least 2 screws in<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>design. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Fastening is the overriding cost in assemblies at this point and it is split<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>between the cost of the fastener and the time taken to fasten. That is why<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>most buildings are being put together with adhesives.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: Greenbuilding [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Behalf Of George J. Nesbitt<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: November-14-12 6:57 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jfstraube@gmail.com">jfstraube@gmail.com</a>; Green Building<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulation fasteners<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>I'm about to screw through 4-1/2" of polyiso, I can only find 6" screws<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>affordably ($13/100ea), longer screws are $1ea. Sources & prices for 6"+<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#10 screws?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>On 11/14/2012 7:53 AM, John Straube wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>We have tested up to 8" of foam (EPS, XPS is stronger) with #10 screws and<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>furring strips. Works fine with siding ( safety factor of more than 10).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>3/8" lags is crazy: never need it. The foam provides a lot of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>strength.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Check our buildingscience.com website or my book for more detail on how<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>this works.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: Clarke Olsen <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:colsen@fairpoint.net"><colsen@fairpoint.net></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sender: "Greenbuilding" <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"><greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:50:23<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Green Building<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org"><greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reply-To: Green Building <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org"><greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulation fasteners<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Greenbuilding mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>ioenergylists.org _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Greenbuilding mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <o:p></o:p></pre>
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</blockquote>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>George J. Nesbitt, Environmental Design / Build, Building Performance<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Contractor HERS I Verifier & HERS II Rater, GreenPoint Rater new & existing<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SF & MF, CABEC CEPE (Certified Energy Plans Examiner), Certified Passive<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>House Consultant, BPI Multifamily Analyst, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.houseisasystem.com">www.houseisasystem.com</a>, (510)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>655-8532 office, (510) 599-5708 mobile<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Greenbuilding mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre>
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