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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>What is incorrect and false and impedes what kind of progress?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am not talking about mechanically fastening foam we are talking about fastening wood against foam through to framing. EIFS screws and washers like dekfast and windlock are great for attaching foam (if you need to) but you need the washer so still about .35 per screw <u>and </u>washer – and it is usually minimum1 screw per square foot for eifs. That is the equivalent cost of 2” of eps (I pay about .18 per board foot for eps). I am not sure what is progressive about thousands of screws and plastic washers - I prefer foam adhesives<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So for mechanically fastening battens or wood components against foam ONE large head structural screw at framing intervals at a cost of .30 per screw is I think a pretty responsible approach (don’t buy them at home despot). And yes screw heads snapping or screws bending is a common problem when embedding a long low strength metal screw 1-1/2” into spf framing. And I am not sure why there would excuses if there wasn’t a perceived problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’ve also borrowed a detail from current sailboat rigging practices where ropes are once again being used to replace metal fasteners. ¼” carbon or vectran fibre rope or webbing can be punched through foam and fastened to framing – makes a great connector for any component that needs to be attached to an exterior face.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> John Straube [mailto:jfstraube@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> November-15-12 6:36 AM<br><b>To:</b> John Salmen<br><b>Cc:</b> george@houseisasystem.com; 'Green Building'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulation fasteners<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>John, much of what you say is not correct. This bothers me because I routinely hear these false claims made, and this incorrect information impedes progress in making good energy efficient buildings (something I know you care about).<br><b>You can get long screws that are not "structural screws".</b> I know, because we and many others installing thick layers of foam insulation and have been doing this for years. There must be a few dozen case studies alone on our website.<br>Yes, long structural screws are what you find at Home Depot, but these expensive and problematic in a number of ways.<br>It is quite possible to get #10 or #12 screws in lengths of 6" and up. #10 is typically only available to about 6" length, and then #12 to about 12 or 14" long, and then you are up to #14 / 1/4" dia for lengths up to 20" or so. We regularily find that a #12x6" can be cheaper than a #10x6" and thus use them, but #10 is what we have always tested in the lab because they are the smallest available and hence the most flexible with the lowest pullout loads. Their heads DO NOT torque off when used to attach foam. They are NOT intended for screwing through solid wood but through insulation, which is why they work perfectly well. Millions of 6" long or longer screws are installed every year through foam in the commercial low-slope roofing and EIFS industry (see for example Wind-lok for #10x6" long). This is the first stop if you are looking for long thin screws that have corrosion resistance, are easy to install and affordable. These products in these building niches all have a long track record of being installed by the thousands without problems of torquing off heads, driver slippage, bending, or whatever other excuses I have heard. They have been designed for embedding about 1 to 1.5" in wood after screwing through 4-12" of roof or EIFS insulation. What is not easy for individuals and small contractors is finding these screws because they are typically carried by larger supply houses and commercial sales outlets. If more people start super insulating their houses, I am pretty sure the fastener industry will respond by marketing their roof screws as wall screws and the problem will go away.<br><br>The HeadLok screws are great for many structural applications, but I think these are used for attaching foam and furring only because they are available at retail outlets. There are quite nice, but are usually twice as expensive as the alternatives (40 cents each and up), and often three times the cost retail (eg we get supply house prices of 12 cents on a #10x6" and the contractor tells us that HeadLok or GRK cost $150 for a 250 pack). <br><br><b>The screws are also NOT the most expensive part of the assembly.</b> Not even close.<br>If you purchase relatively heavy 6" long screws from, say, here <br><a href="http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=9221">http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=9221</a><br>They cost maybe 20 cents each (these are #12-14 screws) Not the cheapest source but not bad. Often available for 15 cents. If you use one screw every 12" vertically and 24" horizontally (pretty conservative), that is 1 screw per 2 square feet or about 10 cents/square foot at 20 cents each. When labour is added, the screw might be 3 times as expensive (30 cents /square foot).<br>4" of polyiso will cost something in the order of $2 to $2.50 per square foot, making the screw less than 5% of the cost of materials for the exterior insulation (adding the cost of furring strips changes little). 4" of EPS will be about $1.50. With labour, the screw is still around 10% or less.<br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dr John Straube, P.Eng. <br><a href="http://www.BuildingScience.com">www.BuildingScience.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>On 12-11-14 11:10 PM, John Salmen wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>When you get into long screws they are structural screws - equivalent to a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>3/8" bolt (actually better). For sure they are overkill but that is where<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>eng. crosses practicality. When you increase length on anything the design<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>requirements for actually getting the screw into the material override the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>design criteria for loading. The reason being that you cannot screw a long<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>softmetal screw into an assembly without torqueing off the head. - I don't<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>even think you can even find a #10 standard soft metal screw in long lengths<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>anymore - I remember putting an order in from one manuf. a decade ago and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>half the screws were thrown away from having heads torqued off. 1/4" and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>3/8" lag bolts would also self destruct far too often in application to make<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>them practical for a load that an 1/8" of metal would carry. We are talking<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>about crews that have to install a lot of bolts/screws in a day and wasting<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>their time with defective material is an overriding consideration.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Headlok screws that I mentioned will cost about .30 per for 6" and about .50<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>per for 8" and each screw will do what is supposed to do. They drive in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>quickly and perfectly each time. They have a large wafer head equivalent to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>a washer so one screw generally takes the place of at least 2 screws in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>design. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Fastening is the overriding cost in assemblies at this point and it is split<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>between the cost of the fastener and the time taken to fasten. That is why<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>most buildings are being put together with adhesives.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: Greenbuilding [<a href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>On Behalf Of George J. Nesbitt<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: November-14-12 6:57 PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a href="mailto:jfstraube@gmail.com">jfstraube@gmail.com</a>; Green Building<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulation fasteners<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I'm about to screw through 4-1/2" of polyiso, I can only find 6" screws<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>affordably ($13/100ea), longer screws are $1ea. Sources & prices for 6"+<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>#10 screws?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On 11/14/2012 7:53 AM, John Straube wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>We have tested up to 8" of foam (EPS, XPS is stronger) with #10 screws and<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>furring strips. Works fine with siding ( safety factor of more than 10).<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>3/8" lags is crazy: never need it. The foam provides a lot of the<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>strength.<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Check our buildingscience.com website or my book for more detail on how<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>this works.<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: Clarke Olsen <a href="mailto:colsen@fairpoint.net"><colsen@fairpoint.net></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sender: "Greenbuilding" <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"><greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:50:23<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: Green Building<a href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org"><greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Reply-To: Green Building <a href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org"><greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulation fasteners<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Greenbuilding mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.b">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.b</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ioenergylists.org _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Greenbuilding mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.b">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.b</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ioenergylists.org<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>George J. Nesbitt, Environmental Design / Build, Building Performance<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Contractor HERS I Verifier & HERS II Rater, GreenPoint Rater new & existing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>SF & MF, CABEC CEPE (Certified Energy Plans Examiner), Certified Passive<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>House Consultant, BPI Multifamily Analyst, <a href="http://www.houseisasystem.com">www.houseisasystem.com</a>, (510)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>655-8532 office, (510) 599-5708 mobile<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Greenbuilding mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>gylists.org<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>