<HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m =
"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<STYLE>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</STYLE>
<STYLE><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Baskerville Old Face";
panose-1:2 2 6 2 8 5 5 2 3 3;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;
color:black;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle24
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY lang=EN-CA dir=ltr link=blue bgColor=white vLink=purple>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>I read your other response before this one so see now what you were saying
about 2 in. To comment on some of your remarks here. Yes, the framed floor is
strong enough—a comprehensive analysis has been done and this is a known fact at
this point. No, there probably is not adequate reinforcement nor enough control
joints. Both those were the responsibility of the concrete contractor and are
questions being raised and pursued. No, the designer was not specifying a gypsum
floor. He was specifying a concrete slab that would be directly stained;
gypcrete cannot be stained from all I’ve read and learned.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The floor IS designed to hold the 2 in. This research was done before my
builder OK’d the slab being poured at 2 in. and further more detailed analysis
(or at least documentation of it) has been done/made available more
recently.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Do note at this point I’m not at all concerned about “removing and
replacing.” I’m only concerned about the “removing” part. Once I am paid for the
rework, I will be doing extensive research on how to optimize a new floor for
the passive solar and radiant heat.</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=terrain@shaw.ca
href="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca">John Salmen</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 14, 2013 8:00 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Green Building'</A> ; <A
title=topher@greenfret.com
href="mailto:topher@greenfret.com">topher@greenfret.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Passive solar home--concrete overlayre
thermalmass</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">I
said ‘usually’ requires. Building is about understanding how materials work and
how they work together. Concrete expands and contracts – the ground or structure
underneath it expands and contracts. It is like two people dancing to different
songs. This is why we put control joints in slabs (to relieve stress and create
predictable cracking). This is also why we separate materials (a layer of sand
between the ground and the concrete to allow for movement) or we increase the
strength of a material to resist cracking (eg. Reinforcement in concrete or
increasing the thickness of a material)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">I
read in a later post that this slab you don’t like is only two inches and
supported by wood framing. You also said that it is thicker than the designer
wanted? This is an atypical floor so it raises lots of questions. Is the framed
floor strong and stiff enough to support a 2” slab (if it is thicker than the
designer wanted then they were probably specifying a gypsum floor with something
over it). Is the slab designed to resist movement (sufficient reinforcement and
control joints)?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">I
have the feeling that this was a conventionally framed floor and the concept of
adding mass as a finished concrete slab floor was an afterthought and not well
thought out. If the floor is not designed to hold the weight of 2” concrete it
will fail in some way or compromise the structure – it will definitely continue
to cause the concrete to crack. Anything you put over the concrete will show the
cracks through it or form new cracks. Removing and replacing the concrete is not
really a solution. 2” concrete has to be reinforced substantially and control
joints cut in a tight grid pattern and still there will be odd cracks. Going
thinner means you are basically pouring concrete tiles and even a 2’ grid
pattern will crack over a framed floor.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">The
only reliable way of achieving mass of consistent density would be tile on a
thickset (tile on 1-1/2” of mortar) and that is tricky. Tile on a couple of
layers of cement board is a possible option if the tile is fully bedded (no air
gaps)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext">
Greenbuilding [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>KTOT (g)<BR><B>Sent:</B> May-13-13 10:20 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Green
Building'; topher@greenfret.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Passive
solar home--concrete overlay re thermalmass<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I am not
clear on what you are saying. Are you saying simply applying overlay material
(as was originally used in a bathroom, which is not thermal mass so was not an
issue re overlay vs. bare concrete) will not work, that something else is
required? Or a layer between the concrete and the
overlay?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Also my
understanding is density isn’t the issue specifically re thermal mass, rather is
an issue of earth materials (stone, water, clay, etc.) vs. non-earth
materials.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Re the
slab, it appears the cement was left sitting in the truck multiple hours with no
retardant added and a very excessive amount of water was added, curing/finishing
was likely improper, and possibly more. I probably didn’t mention the very
severe cracking throughout the floor in my original post. People also have
different opinions on whether one can just cover a defective slab or if cracking
will cause problems in the future as well. Some of those issues are still be
sorted out. Meantime, I’m focusing on the thermal mass aspect of overlay atop a
slab.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
title=terrain@shaw.ca href="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca">John Salmen</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Monday, May 13,
2013 10:58 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
title=greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Green Building'</A> ; <A
title=topher@greenfret.com
href="mailto:topher@greenfret.com">topher@greenfret.com</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Re: [Greenbuilding]
Passive solar home--concrete overlay re
thermalmass<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">The
bonding of a tile or dissimilar material to a concrete slab usually requires a
separation or slip sheet of some sort as well as a trowel pattern that will
create air pockets. This is different that simply a concrete resurfacing
material. Resurfacing is typically a very finely graded cement product with
modifiers to allow for bonding and movement. The density of these materials
would be typically high possibly exceeding the concrete slab. I can’t see an
issue that would involve removing a slab unless it is totally f_____ for other
reasons.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext">
Greenbuilding [<A
href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Vadurro, Rob, EMNRD<BR><B>Sent:</B> May-13-13 8:07
AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:topher@greenfret.com">topher@greenfret.com</A>;
Green Building<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Passive solar
home--concrete overlay re thermal mass<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">I
believe the concern is the transfer of heat between different materials. I can’t
remember where I saw it, but there was a table showing the transferring heat
between base and finish materials, say tile to concrete slab below in passive
solar conditions and the rate of transfer was much less than one might think.
The joint between the two impeded the heat transfer, in other words. I would
think an acrylic additive may impede the transfer even more. The best is always
to not cover the slab, only color it, if heat retention in the slab is the
goal.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Rob
Vadurro, AIA<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Park
Architect<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">New
Mexico State Parks<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">1220
South Saint Francis Drive<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Santa
Fe, NM 87505<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">505-476-3383<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">505-476-3361
fax</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Baskerville Old Face','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext">
Greenbuilding [<A
href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Topher<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 13, 2013 8:39
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Green Building<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Passive
solar home--concrete overlay re thermal mass<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>On 5/13/2013 1:07 AM, KTOT (g)
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Does anyone have experience or knowledge
about this? Using or not using a concrete overlay product for the top layer of
a floor for thermal mass, vs. a plain darkly stained concrete slab
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US><BR>A concrete
overlay product is likely to be roughly similar in thermal characteristics to a
concrete slab. Meaning that you will just have a thicker thermal
mass. It seems unlikely that you should be worried about <I>too much</I>
thermal mass in a passive solar house. The overlay product might have a
lower specific heat, or conductivity, wither of which will reduce it's
effectiveness somewhat. Remember to stick with a dark color.<BR><BR>Thank
You Kindly,<BR><BR>Corwyn<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>-- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Topher Belknap<o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Green Fret Consulting<o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Kermit didn't know the half of it...<o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US><A href="http://www.GreenFret.com/">http://www.GreenFret.com/</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US><A href="mailto:topher@greenfret.com">topher@greenfret.com</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">_______________________________________________<BR>Greenbuilding
mailing list<BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR><A
href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>Greenbuilding mailing
list<BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your
List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>