<div dir="ltr"><div>For some reason the Germans have great colloquialisms to describe this kind of convoluted logic: 'Von hinten durch die Brust ins Auge' - 'from behind through the chest into the eye' being my favorite.* <br>
<br></div><div>And all of this just to heat up some water molecules. The fact that Gallium Arsenide, Indium, and all the other tasty materials that are incorporated into those devices are still relatively cheap is not really a fair measure of their social or total cost, or whether in ten years we will still be able to afford either the constituent materials or the vast infrastructures necessary to produce them at any price when the version we buy today wears out. <br>
<br></div><div>I also seem to recall a rather lively and extensive discussion on this very list about Mr. Holladay's thoughts on PV+electric water heating a year or so back. <br></div><div><br>*<a href="http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idThread=199570">http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idThread=199570</a><br>
<br><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 9:44 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kaze0010@umn.edu" target="_blank">kaze0010@umn.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">On May 23 2013, Reuben Deumling wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Nick Pyner <<a href="mailto:npyner@tig.com.au" target="_blank">npyner@tig.com.au</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Resistance heater 4.9<br>
heat exchanger 2.1<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Oh, I thought those thingies worked without external input of energy. Must<br>
be Carmine's device that does that.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
I submit you will never know how well anything works unless you compare it<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
to the usage.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
But I'm less interested in the device all by itself; I'm interested in the<br>
real world performance with all the particulars. If someone manages to get<br>
by on 1/14th of a gallon of propane/day to heat his water in a sidearm<br>
water heater I want to know about it. I care far less that the 8 gallons of<br>
hot water he uses isn't normed. Besides if we know both the water and<br>
energy usage the differences in use rates can be zeroed out.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
An electric resistance heater has such a low installed cost it can be made<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
to beat a solar system any time. All one has to do is shower once a week.<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
An electric resistance heater is an anethema to me but, right now, I am in<br>
the process of installing a new one. One of the reasons for this is that I<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
could well be dead before a solar system is amortised.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
It seems you are ranking these according to first cost or at least a money<br>
scale. I would think a different (energy) scale might be more appropriate.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div></div>
The concepts Martin Holladay outlines in this article give an additional perspective on electrical resistance heating that is sure to raise some eyebrows. "It’s now cheaper to use a photovoltaic system to heat domestic hot water" (at least in some situations).<br>
<a href="http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/solar-thermal-dead" target="_blank">http://www.<u></u>greenbuildingadvisor.com/<u></u>blogs/dept/musings/solar-<u></u>thermal-dead</a><br>
<br>
I think a similar argument can be made regarding certain home insulation retrofits vs applying the same funds to an low temperature capable air source heat pump and more solar PV.<br>
<br>
Low module prices, even for quality modules from Kyocera or SolarWorld, really make a difference in what makes sense. Probably the most ironic piece in the whole water heating thing is the disconnect in using a piece of high tech electronics (solar module) and an inverter to run a low tech resistance element. (The inverter might be cut out of the picture, but then you may run into the power control issues related to switching high voltage DC.)<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
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