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<TITLE>Re: [Greenbuilding] On Insulating Crawlspaces and Basements: BAD FOAM!</TITLE>
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Well, I like the concept but it leaves more questions than answers. Any manufacturer willing to put down a couple grand can buy a shiny USGBC Member decal (or buy a greenwashing certificate?), and the same can be said about Terrapass offsets for a nickel each. That’s not to poo-poo what Terrapass is doing, but I have trouble believing this crew has created a better closed-cell SPF that doesn’t have the fire retardant and GHG potential problems of the rest of the bunch. Somebody probably needs to talk to their tech guru to find out if/how the chemistry is really different. A lack of transparency would be another red flag.<BR>
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On 6/1/14 9:25 PM, "Leslie Moyer" <<a href="unschooler@lrec.org">unschooler@lrec.org</a>> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#0000FF">> Keith (or anyone),<BR>
> <BR>
> Do you know anything about "Foam It Green" as it relates to these issues <BR>
> (or others)? It's a DIY spray foam kit. They don't have too much info <BR>
> on their website....they are a member of the USGBC and "balance" their <BR>
> carbon emissions through Terrapass.<BR>
> <BR>
> On 9/9/07, 11:57 AM, Keith Winston wrote:<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#008000">>> I don't have time to comment on your crawlspace issue, but I will say:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Don't use TigerFoam, HandiFoam, and all other 2-part builder-applied<BR>
>> foams. Also, don't use contractors who use Dow FrothPak, which is the<BR>
>> same type of foam but in addition to small builder packages is sometimes<BR>
>> blown from trucks in large volumes.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> All these use refrigerants as blowing agents. They release 7-15 lbs of<BR>
>> refrigerants (typically HFC's) for each 600 sf (board foot) package.<BR>
>> The Global Warming Potential (CO2 equivalency) of these refrigerants is<BR>
>> around 1500-2000, which means that those (nominal) 10 lbs are equivalent<BR>
>> to about 7-10 TONS of CO2 release. That will counteract at least the<BR>
>> majority of your CO2 reductions resulting from better insulating.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I think this is a scandal that needs to be exposed. I have been talking<BR>
>> about it with many people (including people in the industry), but<BR>
>> haven't really figured out how to get word out. Until/unless we regulate<BR>
>> carbon emissions, there are no regulatory tools to apply (the<BR>
>> manufacturers changed from CFC's and HCFC's as blowing agents to avoid<BR>
>> Ozone/Montreal Protocol problems).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> "Good" PU foams are blown using a proportioner with heated hoses in a<BR>
>> truck, and water is the blowing agent. Even the little one-part PU foam<BR>
>> cans from Home Depot, etc, are powered by isobutane or other simple<BR>
>> hydrocarbons with relatively low GWP.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I am now accepting donations to my legal defense fund ;-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> If I have anything wrong here, I'd love to know. Constituents can be<BR>
>> (roughly) determined from MSDS sheets for foam products.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Keith<BR>
>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Thomas Lewis wrote:<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">>>> Hello All,<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> I just purchased a home and am developing my project<BR>
>>> list.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> I would like to pose my plan for insulating the<BR>
>>> crawlspace and basement for your comment.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> The crawlspace is ~180ft2 with a dry layed stone<BR>
>>> foundation of unknown depth and ~2' thick. It has<BR>
>>> been worked on over the years. The exterior is<BR>
>>> pointed with a layer of stucco over that and two<BR>
>>> sections have been replaced with 8" masonry block.<BR>
>>> One section is a corner and the other is a four foot<BR>
>>> section with a vent.<BR>
>>> The crawlspace has ~6" - 36" clearance from grade to<BR>
>>> floor joist, all above exterior grade.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> The location is hudson valley ny, on top of a hill<BR>
>>> with clay soil, NE exposure. The soil in the<BR>
>>> crawlspace appears to remain moist much of the time,<BR>
>>> but has not been wet yet and there are no signs of<BR>
>>> water damage on wood laying in there. However, wood<BR>
>>> that is partially embedded in the ground is moist but<BR>
>>> with no signs of fungal or mold activity.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> My idea is to spray foam with 1.75 lb tiger foam. (I<BR>
>>> may just hire our local spray foam guys to do this,<BR>
>>> being that they have air supply masks et al) Clean up<BR>
>>> all debris and remove a layer of soil, which is<BR>
>>> pitched to the center of the room from all points. I<BR>
>>> will then dig a trench in the center, pour a small<BR>
>>> footing for a center post, repost the center support,<BR>
>>> then lay gravel in the trench and over cleaned floor,<BR>
>>> then cover the floor with polyethylene with standard<BR>
>>> lapping and sealing details.<BR>
>>> Based on lack of evidence of water, other than ground<BR>
>>> moisture, and the prospect of installing one into a<BR>
>>> place that I can barely roll over in when laying<BR>
>>> prone, I am opting to not put in a sump pump.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> I will install a 6" round, the kind with a weighted<BR>
>>> baffel, heated air supply to the space, with a return.<BR>
>>> The basement is loosely connected to the air supply<BR>
>>> system, there is one 6" supply and one 8" return down<BR>
>>> there. If I return the crawlspace air to the<BR>
>>> basement, will I pressurize the basement and<BR>
>>> depressurize the living space? Its an old loose<BR>
>>> house, with many places where air moves between<BR>
>>> floors. (I imagine the stack effect is pretty<BR>
>>> substatial here)<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> I am haveing a bit more trouble planning for the<BR>
>>> basement insulation.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Here I have 8' ceilings, the first four feet is stone,<BR>
>>> then on top of that I have brick. The stone is below<BR>
>>> exterior grade and the brick generally starts 6" below<BR>
>>> grade and goes to 3' above grade. I was thinking of<BR>
>>> repointing the interior where necessary, then spraying<BR>
>>> 2 lb. foam on the stone (~3") and a thin (3"?) layer<BR>
>>> of 0.5 lb. on the brick.<BR>
>>> .5 lb on the brick because I am concerned with<BR>
>>> reducing the brick's drying capability and with it<BR>
>>> getting too cold during the winter. My thought is<BR>
>>> that if I insulate alot, it will be harder for the<BR>
>>> brick to dry and the exterior will get colder during<BR>
>>> winter and may damage the brick.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> My apologies, this email seems to have gotten rather<BR>
>>> long. Thanks for reading it and in advance for any<BR>
>>> advice you may have.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Best,<BR>
>>> Tom Lewis<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> "Time makes more converts than reason." Thomas Paine, Common Sense<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> <BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">> <BR>
> <BR>
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