<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Under no circumstances should anything be put into the 2" air space that is specified around a UL/ULC listed factory chimney.<br><br></div>If you put vermiculite in there, you are voiding the UL listing of the chimney by virtue of not installing according to "manufacturers instructions". This creates liability for you.<br><br></div>This is a common misconception, and is the reason for the "attic radiation shield" required in attics, which are required to have a storm collar on them, specifically to prevent people from putting insulation into the 2" air space. Here in Canada, a radiation shield is also required around chimneys in chases, specifically to avoid this scenario.<br><br></div>This is not an issue in normal use. However, the ULC-621 listing means the chimney system (including the air space) has been tested to survive three 30 minute chimney fires at 2100F, without torching the adjacent walls. Put vermiculite into the air space, and the wall will burn. I have seen photos of where this has happened.<br><br></div>Norbert<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:43 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:conservationarchitect@rockbridge.net" target="_blank">conservationarchitect@rockbridge.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial';COLOR:#000000">
<div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">Alan</font></div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">How tight were the openings into this
closed loop fireplace? This may be acceptable to my client.
</font><a href="mailto:.6ach@50pa" target="_blank"><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">.6ach@50pa</font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">
is impressive with these handicaps. What would your recommendation for
interior cloths dryer be?</font></div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">As an alternative to the insulated
chase, could you define a space up to a triple wall chimney that has the
specified clearance to combustible material filled with non combustible
insulation such as vermiculite. </font></div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">Thanks</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri" size="3"><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">Eli</font>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="alan@abramsdesignbuild.com" href="mailto:alan@abramsdesignbuild.com" target="_blank">Alan Abrams</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 02, 2014 2:17 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Green Building</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Visible Flames (Fireplaces) in Tight
Houses</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline"><div><div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">in a recent project for other pyrophilic clients, (and despite all
my hand wringing to them) I spec'd a wood stove by Napoleon: <a href="http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/products/nz26-zero-clearance-and-masonry-fireplace/" target="_blank">http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/products/nz26-zero-clearance-and-masonry-fireplace/</a>
<div> </div>
<div>even with that gratuitous feature (and a conventional clothes drier) the
house came in below 0.6 ACH@50 PA. One nice feature is that the stove has
provision to route air heated within its jacket to remote locations, so the
occupants don't collapse from heat prostration while it's in use. In the subject
case, hot air was ducted to a point adjacent to the heat pump return (direct
connect is prohibited by the mnfr)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>one thing to bear in mind is that the length of the flue, even with a roof
top damper, represents an ambient or near ambient condition. applying insulation
directly against the flue is prohibited, so an insulated chase was provided
instead.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>-AA<br><br></div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,0,0)">Alan Abrams</span><b style="COLOR:rgb(102,0,0)"><br></b><i><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">certified professional building designer,
AIBD<br>certified passive house consultant, PHIUS</span></i>
<div><i><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">certified passive house builder,
PHIUS</span></i><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,0,0)"><font color="#666666"><i><br></i></font></span><font style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)" size="1">cell </font><font style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)" size="1"><a href="tel:202-437-8583" value="+12024378583" target="_blank">202-437-8583</a></font><font style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)" size="1"><br><a style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)" href="mailto:alan@abramsdesignbuild.com" target="_blank">alan@abramsdesignbuild.com</a><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"></font><a href="http://www.heliconworks.com/index2.html" target="_blank">HELICON WORKS
<i>Achitecture and Education</i></a></div></div></div></div>
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 1:37 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:conservationarchitect@rockbridge.net" target="_blank">conservationarchitect@rockbridge.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial';COLOR:#000000">
<div><font size="5"><font face="Times New Roman">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline"><font face="Times New Roman" size="5">I intend to build only high standard thermal
envelopes. I have a client that expresses interest in this except she
wants a fireplace. Ugh! I am looking for ways for her to see an
open flame that will not compromise the benefit of a high standard
thermal envelope. I have suggested an outdoor air fed wood stove with a
glass door. This could be installed to look like a traditional
fireplace.</font> </div>She has expressed interest in unvented gas
fireplace, Ugh again! I certainly do not want CO being introduced by
design into a tight thermal envelope. Increasing ventilation rates would
be required. I am wondering if a vented gas fireplace that has outdoor
air feed would be acceptable. I am wondering if others on this list have
managed clients with the expectation of seeing a flame in a tight thermal
envelope. </font></font></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline"><font face="Times New Roman" size="5"></font> </div></div>
<div><font size="5"><font face="Times New Roman">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline"><font face="Times New Roman" size="5">I am beginning my career as a contractor.
My intention is to sale predesigned homes that incorporate the high standard
thermal envelope with my details so my client and I know what the cost is up
front. To do this, I am limiting what I will offer. This is one
reason I am moving away from my previous custom design architect model where
you must involve your client in all decisions to build there dream
building. </font></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline"><font face="Times New Roman" size="5">To achieve high energy performance buildings,
multiple systems need to be complimentary. This is why I want to sale a
package that achieves this. I am wanting to control these choices.
Sometimes that means turning down projects</font>.
</div></font></font></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline"><font face="Times New Roman" size="5"></font> </div></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline"><font face="Times New Roman" size="5">Eli
</font></div></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding
mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to
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</div></div><p>
</p><hr><span class="">
_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing
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Greenbuilding mailing list<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
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to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature">Norbert Senf<br>Masonry Stove Builders<br>25 Brouse Road, RR 5<br>Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0<br>819.647.5092<br><a href="http://www.heatkit.com" target="_blank">www.heatkit.com</a></div>
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