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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>I favor EPS because it is vapor permeable and way less expensive, although
slightly less R value. I have a supplier that can form it to specified
thickness and length, avoiding waste. That lower cost is somewhat
reflective of lower embodied energy to build it. I would have some concern
that the standing seam would be a vapor barrier. If rafters are already on
2’ oc or less, I would install sheathing. 23/32 osb or plywood meet the 15
minite requirement of Section 2603.4 2012 IBC according to Engineer wood
association. See attachment. Another benefit to using the thicker
sheathing, you can install long screws that can get the grip they need from
sheathing. At 10” thick or larger foam, it becomes challenging to hit the
rafter. On top of foam, put 2x3 furring strips horizontally
fastened by long screw through both foam and furring strip to nail metal
roofing. The polyiso can be a vapor barrier, with a perfect installation,
perhaps the ventilation space needed above the insulation would not be
needed. Perfection is sometimes hard to come by. I prefer vapor permeable
and 2x3 to provide ventilation with corrugated metal roof above that can span 2’
in our area. Check the span max relative to local load requirement.
I like the prefinished corrugated metal roofing because it installs quickly and
the ribs running vertical gives a vertical ventilation path to a ridge
vent. Vapor wants to rise out of the assembly. If you use standing
seam, the span may be less and you need to be careful about how it is
vented. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My thoughts for what it is worth. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Eli </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=terrain@shaw.ca
href="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca">John Salmen</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 08, 2014 10:01 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Green Building'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Polyiso strength on
roof</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Its
funny as its thought that the expanding agent causes the decrease and as the
blowing agent outgases over time the performance drops as well. EPS improves in
cold weather. Here is a link to the building science realer world tests summary
<A
href="http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/special/thermal-metric-documents/thermal-metric-summary-report">http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/special/thermal-metric-documents/thermal-metric-summary-report</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
Greenbuilding [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Alan Abrams<BR><B>Sent:</B> December-08-14 6:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Green Building<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Polyiso strength on
roof<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>and now comes Building Green, to out the news on polyiso:
that its performance plummets as the temperature drops...<BR><BR><A
href="http://www2.buildinggreen.com/article/polyiso-manufacturers-turn-blind-eye-problems-cold-temperatures?utm_source=BuildingGreen.com%20Mailing%20List&utm_campaign=c7088d50b1-BGB_2014_12_08_members&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d558b0594a-c7088d50b1-157062105&mc_cid=c7088d50b1&mc_eid=d0e88c5192">http://www2.buildinggreen.com/article/polyiso-manufacturers-turn-blind-eye-problems-cold-temperatures?utm_source=BuildingGreen.com%20Mailing%20List&utm_campaign=c7088d50b1-BGB_2014_12_08_members&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d558b0594a-c7088d50b1-157062105&mc_cid=c7088d50b1&mc_eid=d0e88c5192</A><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>-AA<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR clear=all><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #660000">Alan
Abrams<B><BR></B></SPAN><I><SPAN style="COLOR: #666666">certified professional
building designer, AIBD<BR>certified passive house consultant,
PHIUS</SPAN></I><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="COLOR: #666666">certified passive house
builder, PHIUS<BR></SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: #666666">cell
202-437-8583<BR><A href="mailto:alan@abramsdesignbuild.com" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: #666666">alan@abramsdesignbuild.com</SPAN></A><BR></SPAN><A
href="http://www.heliconworks.com/index2.html" target=_blank>HELICON WORKS
<I>Achitecture and Education</I></A><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sacie Lambertson <<A
href="mailto:sacie.lambertson@gmail.com"
target=_blank>sacie.lambertson@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Verdana","sans-serif"'>Recommend
highly staggering the EPS on the roof, using the foam sealant/glue John mentions
AND covering all with thick layer (s) of felt. We have had a condensation
problem with a similar combination (metal roof attached to straps etc). I
am pretty sure it is because the foam was not staggered and or sufficient
foam/glue was not used in all the nooks and crannies. Needs some real
hands on supervision and frankly better if the details are handled by you rather
than the construction people.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Verdana","sans-serif"'>Plywood not
necessary.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Verdana","sans-serif"'>We're in NE
Kansas. Lots of wind.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Verdana","sans-serif"; COLOR: #888888'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Verdana","sans-serif"; COLOR: #888888'>Sacie<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 9:03 AM, John Salmen <<A
href="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca" target=_blank>terrain@shaw.ca</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.8pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0cm">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>I
would strongly recommend eps rather than polyiso for the roof insul. There are
a number of benefits you can research. 2” foam can span the 5.5 centres but I
would bond the staggered foam layers together using some foam adhesive (spray
poly foam works well). Depending on the type of metal roofing (fastening) it
could be laid directly on the foam (with a wrb) eliminating the ply layer.
Metal roofs are very prone to condensation inevitably wetting the sheathing so
the ply is a weak component. If ply is used a a very well applied wrb is
crucial (membrane). The ply is really just there for fastening so if a z strip
or other fastening system could be used it would minimize material in the
assembly.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>John</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
Greenbuilding [mailto:<A
href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>Ron Cascio<BR><B>Sent:</B> December-07-14 9:45 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Green
Building'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Greenbuilding] Polyiso strength on
roof</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="COLOR: #1f497d">Sounds good to me.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="COLOR: #1f497d">Ron</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
Greenbuilding [<A href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Bill Allen<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 07, 2014 10:52
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Green Building<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Greenbuilding] Polyiso
strength on roof</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>Hi all</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>I am about to reroof my 1926 colonial and am looking to also
insulate per the BSC "deep energy retrofit" plans consisting of plywood
sheathing, 2 layers of 2" polyiso, another layer of plywood, then roofing (in
my case, standing seam metal roofing).</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>The original roof was wooden shingles that are still in place with
2 layers of asphalt on top. Also still in place are the nailers for the wood
shingles...roughly 1x2s, 5.5" on center across the
rafters.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>My question is: if I leave the 1x2 nailers in place during the demo
can i exclude the first layer of plywood and install the polyiso directly on
the nailers? It would then have plywood on top, secured with long screws into
the rafters. Less material and less cost.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>Thanks for any thoughts/comments.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>Sent from my cell phone</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>< dy></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV></DIV>
<P
class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>Greenbuilding
mailing list<BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR><A
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<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<P
class=MsoNormal><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Greenbuilding
mailing list<BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR><A
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<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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