<html><head></head><body data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;"><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Hey all...how does one add into the life cycle analysis purchasing products that subsidize the aerospace and defense industry? (that's a rhetorical question) I guess at that point life cycle becomes an oxymoron....</div> <div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style="display:initial"></div> <div style="font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Koodo network.</div> <table width="100%" style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px;"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <div id="_persistentHeader" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; font-family: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate Pro'; font-size: 10pt;"> <div><b>From: </b>greenbuilding-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</div><div><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:30 PM</div><div><b>To: </b>greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org</div><div><b>Reply To: </b>greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org</div><div><b>Subject: </b>Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 52, Issue 15</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(186, 188, 209); border-top-width: 1pt; font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></div><br><div id="_originalContent" style="">Send Greenbuilding mailing list submissions to<br> greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> greenbuilding-request@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> greenbuilding-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Greenbuilding digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (Frank Tettemer)<br> 2. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<br> (John Straube)<br> 3. Re: Gb emails (Lynelle Hamilton)<br> 4. Re: Gb emails (Kathleen Mitchell)<br> 5. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof<br> (Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn)<br> 6. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<br> (Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn)<br> 7. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<br> (Alan Abrams)<br> 8. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<br> (Frank Tettemer)<br> 9. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<br> (Norbert Senf)<br> 10. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof<br> (conservation architect)<br> 11. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<br> (John Salmen)<br> 12. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<br> (Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn)<br> 13. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof<br> (Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn)<br> 14. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<br> (Michael O'Brien)<br> 15. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (Reuben Deumling)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:42:32 -0500<br>From: Frank Tettemer <frank@livingsol.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof<br>Message-ID: <5488E878.2090301@livingsol.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br><br>I see nothing wrong with using Roxul Comfortboard CIS underthe majority <br>ofa concrete slab, while using HI 60 or HI 80 under the load bearing areas.<br>There really is no excuse to use EPS for insulation in a home, except <br>under load bearing areas.<br><br>And as for walls ... of course the obvious choice is bales and earthen <br>plaster, where appropriate. And where bales and plaster is not <br>appropriate, double stud dense pack is always the winner.. (There is no <br>reasonable excuse to use foam in walls, either. )<br><br>Let's not debate this topic any more, Ergo.<br>You might as well bite the bullet, as you are preaching to a <br>congregation that's been working for years ... decades! ... to find ways <br>to safeguard the built environment's occupants by using natural <br>materials. No one wants to go backwards; you really are not going to <br>get any "converts".<br><br>Frank Tettemer<br>Living Sol ~ Building and Design<br>www.livingsol.com<br>613 756 3884<br><br><br>On 10/12/2014 6:11 PM, ErgoDesk wrote:<br>> Admit that you are afraid of becoming irrelevant in the industry <br>> because of being afraid of better technologies that give you a better <br>> product for half the price.<br>><br>> The Passive House enthusiasts are now using EPS for their Foundation <br>> Insulation because it's the BEST Choice.<br><br>-- <br><br><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 00:52:13 +0000<br>From: John Straube <jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof (ErgoDesk)<br>Message-ID: <33EB237E-906F-491A-B879-1F6C8B5B4583@uwaterloo.ca><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"<br><br>Embodied energy goes by whatever units make sense. But for a material it is common to do it in energy units per mass units, Btu/b or J/kg, or kWh/kg, etc.<br>You definitely need to adjust for mass. If you use a cubic foot of concrete it weighs 140 pounds and EPS weighs only 1.5 to 4 or so depending on the grade.<br><br>The balance question is of course key. I doubt there is an answer. I would like to aim for lowest embodied energy while meeting the requirements of durability affordability availability constructability comfort, health, safety, and serviceability. I would be suspicious of investing more than say 10 or 20 years of energy into insulation, even though I know the building will usually last 30 to 100 years. But of course, the embodied energy of a countertop, or a toilet will never ?payback? so it has an infinitely high impact. <br><br>On Dec 10, 2014, at 7:16 PM, Ross Elliott <relliott@homesol.ca> wrote:<br><br>> If embodied energy goes by weight, perhaps a hundred pounds of EPS goes a<br>> long way? Its GWP is lower than other foams since it uses air as the blowing<br>> agent.<br>> <br>> On the subject of polyiso foamboard, it tends to perform worse the colder it<br>> gets.<br>> http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/cold-climates-r-5-foa<br>> m-beats-r-6 <br>> <br>> Where's the right balance between energy embodied in a product vs. how much<br>> energy it saves over its lifespan? My own house has lots of foam in it, they<br>> tell me it's made from soybeans and pop bottles so it must be good.<br><br><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 3<br>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:09:41 -0500<br>From: Lynelle Hamilton <lynelle@lahamilton.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org>,<br> mitchellkat@yahoo.com<br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Gb emails<br>Message-ID: <5488EED5.9030805@lahamilton.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br><br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141210/f38a55f1/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 4<br>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 17:10:48 -0800<br>From: Kathleen Mitchell <mitchellkat@yahoo.com><br>To: Lynelle Hamilton <lynelle@lahamilton.com><br>Cc: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Gb emails<br>Message-ID:<br> <096fa877-9af1-4ab4-95b5-7c2bff8afe48@email.bluemailapp.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>I'm using blue mail on a tablet; that must be the problem. Thanks!<br><br>Kathleen Mitchell<br><br><br><br>On Dec 10, 2014, 5:09 PM, at 5:09 PM, Lynelle Hamilton <lynelle@lahamilton.com> wrote:<br>>I'm getting text as usual. What e-mail programme do you use?<br>><br>>Lynelle<br>><br>>On 2014-12-10 4:42 PM, Kathleen Mitchell wrote:<br>><br>>Why is nothing coming through as text any more? For a while I was<br>>getting emails with subject lines only, and now I get subject lines and<br>>attachments. Is this a problem on my end, or the list's?<br>><br>>Kathleen Mitchell<br>><br>>On Dec 10, 2014, at 1:25 PM,<br>>greenbuilding-request@lists.bioenergylists.org wrote: <br>><br>>Send Greenbuilding mailing list submissions to<br>>greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via<br>>the World Wide Web, visit<br>>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>>greenbuilding-request@lists.bioenergylists.org You can reach the person<br>>managing the list at greenbuilding-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org When<br>>replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than<br>>"Re: Contents of Greenbuilding digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re:<br>>embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (Gennaro Brooks-Church -<br>>Eco Brooklyn) 2. Re: embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof<br>>(Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn)<br>>_____________________________________________<br>>Greenbuilding mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email<br>>address Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your<br>>List Settings use the web page<br>>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>>_______________________________________________ Greenbuilding mailing<br>>list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List<br>>Settings use the web page<br>>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>>_____________________________________________<br>> <br>><br>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!<br>>Antivirus protection is active. <br>><br>> <br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141210/a7277285/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 5<br>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:26:25 -0500<br>From: Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <info@ecobrooklyn.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof<br>Message-ID:<br> <CAPV9BxMtJnXGJ6kY5hTaXaSrVA28ZM0yFFYdW2i=8TN_g2_2mg@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>As Frank says even if EPS was the best option I would still try to find a<br>more natural option. For many reasons but maybe one that you would<br>understand is what happens when we don't have the oil to make the EPS<br>anymore?<br><br>On Wednesday, December 10, 2014, Frank Tettemer <frank@livingsol.com> wrote:<br><br>> I see nothing wrong with using Roxul Comfortboard CIS underthe majority<br>> ofa concrete slab, while using HI 60 or HI 80 under the load bearing areas.<br>> There really is no excuse to use EPS for insulation in a home, except<br>> under load bearing areas.<br>><br>> And as for walls ... of course the obvious choice is bales and earthen<br>> plaster, where appropriate. And where bales and plaster is not appropriate,<br>> double stud dense pack is always the winner.. (There is no reasonable<br>> excuse to use foam in walls, either. )<br>><br>> Let's not debate this topic any more, Ergo.<br>> You might as well bite the bullet, as you are preaching to a congregation<br>> that's been working for years ... decades! ... to find ways to safeguard<br>> the built environment's occupants by using natural materials. No one<br>> wants to go backwards; you really are not going to get any "converts".<br>><br>> Frank Tettemer<br>> Living Sol ~ Building and Design<br>> www.livingsol.com<br>> 613 756 3884<br>><br>><br>> On 10/12/2014 6:11 PM, ErgoDesk wrote:<br>><br>>> Admit that you are afraid of becoming irrelevant in the industry because<br>>> of being afraid of better technologies that give you a better product for<br>>> half the price.<br>>><br>>> The Passive House enthusiasts are now using EPS for their Foundation<br>>> Insulation because it's the BEST Choice.<br>>><br>><br>> --<br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.<br>> bioenergylists.org<br>><br><br><br>-- <br>Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA<br>www.EcoBrooklyn.com<br>22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141210/fee26a0a/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 6<br>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 21:02:20 -0500<br>From: Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <info@ecobrooklyn.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof (ErgoDesk)<br>Message-ID:<br> <CAPV9BxNufc7rBrkBd=DwDtyD9J7iUzgBtkSq4_jTpH=kP80WXw@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>> They tell me it's made from soybeans and pop bottles so it must be good.<br>> Ross Elliott<br><br><br>A whopping 5% of the foam is soy. The other 95% is just like any two part<br>foam. Last time I checked.<br><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org <javascript:;><br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>><br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>><br><br><br>-- <br>Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA<br>www.EcoBrooklyn.com<br>22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141210/94589dff/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 7<br>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 06:37:11 -0500<br>From: Alan Abrams <alan@abramsdesignbuild.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof (ErgoDesk)<br>Message-ID:<br> <CADj3_s7EwQmBRw_vEiRh-N0zoofX1gjZ2049pH7sTYV9sdxB=w@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>and that 5% that is soy has the carbon of the fertilizer and fuel it took<br>to grow, harvest, transport, and process it. I would not doubt that is a<br>greater EE factor than pure plastic.<br><br>not to mention, the diversion from feedstock. IOW's, how many more acres of<br>Amazon forests does it take, to grow feedstock for raising cattle, because<br>of the soy that was used for manufacturing insulation?<br><br>put another way, could you eat your insulation if you got hungry enough?<br><br>AA<br><br>Alan Abrams<br><br>*certified professional building designer, AIBDcertified passive house<br>consultant, PHIUS*<br>*certified passive house builder, PHIUS*<br>cell 202-437-8583<br>alan@abramsdesignbuild.com<br>HELICON WORKS *Achitecture and Education*<br><http://www.heliconworks.com/index2.html><br><br>On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:02 PM, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <<br>info@ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:<br><br>><br>> They tell me it's made from soybeans and pop bottles so it must be good.<br>>> Ross Elliott<br>><br>><br>> A whopping 5% of the foam is soy. The other 95% is just like any two part<br>> foam. Last time I checked.<br>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>><br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>><br>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>>><br>><br>><br>> --<br>> Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>> Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA<br>> www.EcoBrooklyn.com<br>> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>><br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141211/24eaef1c/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 8<br>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 06:43:54 -0500<br>From: Frank Tettemer <frank@livingsol.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof (ErgoDesk)<br>Message-ID: <5489837A.1090104@livingsol.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br><br>Chris Magwood, from the Endeavour Centre, *endeavour*centre.org/,<br>has written a comprehensive article that was just published in Home <br>Power magazine which creates a viable summary of assessment of building <br>materials. It is definitely worthy of our discussion group.<br><br>He also has a fine book, Making Better Buildings, that eshautively lists <br>and annalyzes embodied energy,"from harvesting raw ingredients to <br>manufacture, transport, and use, to waste and disposal issues." If you <br>can't buy the book, then the five page magazine article sums it up quite <br>well:<br><br>http://www.homepower.com/articles/home-efficiency/equipment-products/assessing-green-building-materials<br><br>Frank Tettemer<br>Living Sol ~ Building and Design<br>www.livingsol.com<br>613 756 3884<br><br><br><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>-- <br><br><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 9<br>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:38:21 -0500<br>From: Norbert Senf <norbert.senf@gmail.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof (ErgoDesk)<br>Message-ID:<br> <CAGYvK4fv-h-rLf208ktfs3qNsQ+iry9ajmzJxbmECpM+jS4Jwg@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>I like Chris Magwood's transportation metric of gallons of diesel per<br>ton-mile.<br>Hopping on a plane to Cancun works out to roughly 250 gallons of diesel per<br>person, if the greenhouse effect of the high altitude water vapor is taken<br>into account.<br><br>On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 6:43 AM, Frank Tettemer <frank@livingsol.com> wrote:<br><br>> Chris Magwood, from the Endeavour Centre, *endeavour*centre.org/,<br>> has written a comprehensive article that was just published in Home Power<br>> magazine which creates a viable summary of assessment of building<br>> materials. It is definitely worthy of our discussion group.<br>><br>> He also has a fine book, Making Better Buildings, that eshautively lists<br>> and annalyzes embodied energy,"from harvesting raw ingredients to<br>> manufacture, transport, and use, to waste and disposal issues." If you<br>> can't buy the book, then the five page magazine article sums it up quite<br>> well:<br>><br>><br>> http://www.homepower.com/articles/home-efficiency/equipment-products/assessing-green-building-materials<br>><br>-- <br>Norbert Senf<br>Masonry Stove Builders<br>25 Brouse Road, RR 5<br>Shawville Qu?bec J0X 2Y0<br>819.647.5092<br>www.heatkit.com<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141211/10724aa2/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 10<br>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:38:03 -0500<br>From: "conservation architect" <elitalking@rockbridge.net><br>To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof<br>Message-ID: <4D86319A71674321B53ECC385B8A6B0E@userHP><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>All the participants on this list aspire to a low carbon footprint. We are a community of people who have a common understanding with varied strategies for applying. <br><br>I hear the case for the all natural material home. I know these home are beautiful. I am sure you put a lot of love and passion into every piece. <br><br>I side with the lifecycle benefit of higher performance foam products in combination with natural materials being net positive. If we actually run out of consuming fossil fuels which these foams are made from, we are already toast. Greenhouse gases are accumulative in the atmosphere. Will we stop the net addition year after year? We can not consume all the fossil fuels. That said, if we prioritize the use of fossil fuels that builds durable long term reductions in the burning of fossil fuels, that is a good trade off. EPS as a disposable coffee cup (bad), as a durable thermal envelope combined with carbon free renewable (solar, wind, hydro, et) providing emission free comfort and protection from the extremes of our natural cycles (good). These goals can also be reasonably obtained by execution really high standards in the design and implementation of natural materials. <br><br>The cost of many of our strategies makes many of our clients a niche market. Only if these standards become main stream can we have the desired impact on the climate. <br><br>Eli <br><br><br>From: Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <br>As Frank says even if EPS was the best option I would still try to find a more natural option. For many reasons but maybe one that you would understand is what happens when we don't have the oil to make the EPS anymore?<br><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141211/c3656cd4/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 11<br>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:19:36 -0800<br>From: "John Salmen" <terrain@shaw.ca><br>To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof (ErgoDesk)<br>Message-ID: <002e01d0155e$41fb6d10$c5f24730$@ca><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>So if diverting energy from the food stream and the deforestation that results is unacceptable in the case of soy foams ? why is diverting energy from the paper stream and subsequent deforestation of NA acceptable? The question is density and the amount of a virgin material used to get a result ? and then the question becomes appropriate virgin material. I don?t like bringing food material into the building or waste stream but it may be better than producing synthetic material ? I don?t know?. <br><br> <br><br>All insulations are simple ? a material that is made to encapsulate air. . Cellulose or fibre material is odd because we are harvesting, processing and transporting a coarse material that either naturally encapsulates air or is made to do so rather than simply introducing air into a material in a geographically more local context ? and most foams are produced close to the regions where they are marketed. In my case a foam brand is about 60 miles away whereas mineral wood is about 3000 miles.<br><br> <br><br>Again not a defense of foam just trying to make sense of the discussion.<br><br> <br><br> <br><br> <br><br>From: Greenbuilding [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Alan Abrams<br>Sent: December-11-14 3:37 AM<br>To: Green Building<br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<br><br> <br><br>and that 5% that is soy has the carbon of the fertilizer and fuel it took to grow, harvest, transport, and process it. I would not doubt that is a greater EE factor than pure plastic. <br><br> <br><br>not to mention, the diversion from feedstock. IOW's, how many more acres of Amazon forests does it take, to grow feedstock for raising cattle, because of the soy that was used for manufacturing insulation?<br><br>put another way, could you eat your insulation if you got hungry enough?<br><br> <br><br>AA<br><br><br><br><br>Alan Abrams<br>certified professional building designer, AIBD<br>certified passive house consultant, PHIUS<br><br>certified passive house builder, PHIUS<br>cell 202-437-8583<br> <mailto:alan@abramsdesignbuild.com> alan@abramsdesignbuild.com<br>HELICON WORKS <http://www.heliconworks.com/index2.html> Achitecture and Education<br><br> <br><br>On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:02 PM, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <info@ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:<br><br> <br><br>They tell me it's made from soybeans and pop bottles so it must be good.<br>Ross Elliott <br><br> <br><br>A whopping 5% of the foam is soy. The other 95% is just like any two part foam. Last time I checked. <br><br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br> <br><br>-- <br>Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA<br>www.EcoBrooklyn.com<br>22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br> <br><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141211/757cab9b/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 12<br>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:55:51 -0500<br>From: Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <info@ecobrooklyn.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof (ErgoDesk)<br>Message-ID:<br> <CAPV9BxPGeeF3OerJ_paiREyKhoT3KP4vHkEpM8h-ZS_LyLUETg@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>John: " In my case a foam brand is about 60 miles away "<br><br>I doubt that. If it is like most products on this planet, it's ingredients<br>span across all continents: soy from Nebraska, ingredient A from China,<br>Ingredient B from the Philippines, canisters from Mexicon etc.<br><br>This the argument for simple building materials. Less ingredients, less<br>travel. Cob: hay and mud from next door. Now that's green.<br><br>Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA<br>www.EcoBrooklyn.com<br>22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br><br>On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, John Salmen <terrain@shaw.ca> wrote:<br><br>> So if diverting energy from the food stream and the deforestation that<br>> results is unacceptable in the case of soy foams - why is diverting energy<br>> from the paper stream and subsequent deforestation of NA acceptable? The<br>> question is density and the amount of a virgin material used to get a<br>> result - and then the question becomes appropriate virgin material. I<br>> don't like bringing food material into the building or waste stream but it<br>> may be better than producing synthetic material - I don't know?.<br>><br>><br>><br>> All insulations are simple - a material that is made to encapsulate air. .<br>> Cellulose or fibre material is odd because we are harvesting, processing<br>> and transporting a coarse material that either naturally encapsulates air<br>> or is made to do so rather than simply introducing air into a material in a<br>> geographically more local context - and most foams are produced close to<br>> the regions where they are marketed. In my case a foam brand is about 60<br>> miles away whereas mineral wood is about 3000 miles.<br>><br>><br>><br>> Again not a defense of foam just trying to make sense of the discussion.<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> *From:* Greenbuilding [mailto:<br>> greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] *On Behalf Of *Alan Abrams<br>> *Sent:* December-11-14 3:37 AM<br>> *To:* Green Building<br>> *Subject:* Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br>> roof (ErgoDesk)<br>><br>><br>><br>> and that 5% that is soy has the carbon of the fertilizer and fuel it took<br>> to grow, harvest, transport, and process it. I would not doubt that is a<br>> greater EE factor than pure plastic.<br>><br>><br>><br>> not to mention, the diversion from feedstock. IOW's, how many more acres<br>> of Amazon forests does it take, to grow feedstock for raising cattle,<br>> because of the soy that was used for manufacturing insulation?<br>><br>> put another way, could you eat your insulation if you got hungry enough?<br>><br>><br>><br>> AA<br>><br>><br>> Alan Abrams<br>><br>> *certified professional building designer, AIBDcertified passive house<br>> consultant, PHIUS*<br>><br>><br>> *certified passive house builder, PHIUS*cell 202-437-8583<br>> alan@abramsdesignbuild.com<br>> HELICON WORKS *Achitecture and Education*<br>> <http://www.heliconworks.com/index2.html><br>><br>><br>><br>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:02 PM, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <<br>> info@ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:<br>><br>><br>><br>> They tell me it's made from soybeans and pop bottles so it must be good.<br>> Ross Elliott<br>><br>><br>><br>> A whopping 5% of the foam is soy. The other 95% is just like any two part<br>> foam. Last time I checked.<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>><br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>><br>><br>><br>> --<br>> Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>> Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA<br>> www.EcoBrooklyn.com<br>> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>><br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>><br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>><br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141211/ecef54e5/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 13<br>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:00:37 -0500<br>From: Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <info@ecobrooklyn.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof<br>Message-ID:<br> <CAPV9BxNTcjVQh-K5en5-HgmMky9h_4+=G=CJm5B9DKqEKGDkfA@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>Eli: "If we actually run out of consuming fossil fuels which these foams<br>are made from, we are already toast."<br>My point is that all these foams, concrete, metals, and plastics are the<br>ones making the oil run out in the first place!<br><br><br>Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA<br>www.EcoBrooklyn.com<br>22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br><br>On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 10:38 AM, conservation architect <<br>elitalking@rockbridge.net> wrote:<br><br>> All the participants on this list aspire to a low carbon footprint.<br>> We are a community of people who have a common understanding with varied<br>> strategies for applying.<br>><br>> I hear the case for the all natural material home. I know these home are<br>> beautiful. I am sure you put a lot of love and passion into every piece.<br>><br>> I side with the lifecycle benefit of higher performance foam products in<br>> combination with natural materials being net positive. If we actually run<br>> out of consuming fossil fuels which these foams are made from, we are<br>> already toast. Greenhouse gases are accumulative in the atmosphere. Will<br>> we stop the net addition year after year? We can not consume all the<br>> fossil fuels. That said, if we prioritize the use of fossil fuels that<br>> builds durable long term reductions in the burning of fossil fuels, that is<br>> a good trade off. EPS as a disposable coffee cup (bad), as a durable<br>> thermal envelope combined with carbon free renewable (solar, wind, hydro,<br>> et) providing emission free comfort and protection from the extremes of our<br>> natural cycles (good). These goals can also be reasonably obtained by<br>> execution really high standards in the design and implementation of natural<br>> materials.<br>><br>> The cost of many of our strategies makes many of our clients a niche<br>> market. Only if these standards become main stream can we have the desired<br>> impact on the climate.<br>><br>> Eli<br>><br>><br>> *From:* Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <info@ecobrooklyn.com><br>> As Frank says even if EPS was the best option I would still try to find<br>> a more natural option. For many reasons but maybe one that you would<br>> understand is what happens when we don't have the oil to make the EPS<br>> anymore?<br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>><br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141211/e541e88a/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 14<br>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:36:56 -0800<br>From: "Michael O'Brien" <obrien@hevanet.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof (ErgoDesk)<br>Message-ID: <48E332B2-18DD-4BED-83D0-3476C98764B7@hevanet.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>Hi, guys--<br><br>It's good that we examine the health and environmental costs and benefits of our materials. The danger is that we may become personally tied to our particular choices such that we advocate for them by criticizing and belittling others who make different choices. That person becomes a bully who attempts to force his views through ad hominem arguments.<br><br>For me, polystyrene as a building material cannot be separated from polystyrene for consumer products like coffee cups. Polystyrene is one of the world's worst pollutants. Saying that our wall insulation EPS is not what's fouling the oceans, is avoiding looking at all the problems associated with polystyrene in general. Our use of it as a material supports the primary manufacturers, who will not be responsible for their impact on health and environment.<br><br>If you haven't yet read Alex Wilson's evaluation of polystyrene in EBN, it's online at buildinggreen.com as "Avoid Polystyrene Insulation."<br><br>Best, Mike O'Brien<br>Sent from my iPhone<br><br>> On Dec 11, 2014, at 8:55 AM, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <info@ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:<br>> <br>> John: " In my case a foam brand is about 60 miles away "<br>> <br>> I doubt that. If it is like most products on this planet, it's ingredients span across all continents: soy from Nebraska, ingredient A from China, Ingredient B from the Philippines, canisters from Mexicon etc. <br>> <br>> This the argument for simple building materials. Less ingredients, less travel. Cob: hay and mud from next door. Now that's green.<br>> <br>> Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>> Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA<br>> www.EcoBrooklyn.com<br>> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br>> <br>>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, John Salmen <terrain@shaw.ca> wrote:<br>>> So if diverting energy from the food stream and the deforestation that results is unacceptable in the case of soy foams ? why is diverting energy from the paper stream and subsequent deforestation of NA acceptable? The question is density and the amount of a virgin material used to get a result ? and then the question becomes appropriate virgin material. I don?t like bringing food material into the building or waste stream but it may be better than producing synthetic material ? I don?t know?. <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> All insulations are simple ? a material that is made to encapsulate air. . Cellulose or fibre material is odd because we are harvesting, processing and transporting a coarse material that either naturally encapsulates air or is made to do so rather than simply introducing air into a material in a geographically more local context ? and most foams are produced close to the regions where they are marketed. In my case a foam brand is about 60 miles away whereas mineral wood is about 3000 miles.<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> Again not a defense of foam just trying to make sense of the discussion.<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> From: Greenbuilding [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Alan Abrams<br>>> Sent: December-11-14 3:37 AM<br>>> To: Green Building<br>>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> and that 5% that is soy has the carbon of the fertilizer and fuel it took to grow, harvest, transport, and process it. I would not doubt that is a greater EE factor than pure plastic. <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> not to mention, the diversion from feedstock. IOW's, how many more acres of Amazon forests does it take, to grow feedstock for raising cattle, because of the soy that was used for manufacturing insulation?<br>>> <br>>> put another way, could you eat your insulation if you got hungry enough?<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> AA<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> Alan Abrams<br>>> certified professional building designer, AIBD<br>>> certified passive house consultant, PHIUS<br>>> <br>>> certified passive house builder, PHIUS<br>>> cell 202-437-8583<br>>> alan@abramsdesignbuild.com<br>>> HELICON WORKS Achitecture and Education<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:02 PM, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <info@ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> They tell me it's made from soybeans and pop bottles so it must be good.<br>>> Ross Elliott <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> A whopping 5% of the foam is soy. The other 95% is just like any two part foam. Last time I checked. <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> -- <br>>> Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>>> Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>>> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA<br>>> www.EcoBrooklyn.com<br>>> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141211/50c93144/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 15<br>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:15:10 -0800<br>From: Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com><br>To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on<br> roof<br>Message-ID:<br> <CAE5fceCP82Udy1mT75AdKzD7c+2_FOzDQvXcv-Onj24YApWjbw@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:00 AM, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <<br>info@ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:<br><br>> Eli: "If we actually run out of consuming fossil fuels which these foams<br>> are made from, we are already toast."<br>> My point is that all these foams, concrete, metals, and plastics are the<br>> ones making the oil run out in the first place!<br>><br><br>Gotta agree with Gennaro on that one. There is this first order issue:<br>demand for these products, which has its implications for fossil fuel<br>extraction and use, but there's also the second order issue which is that<br>if we, the greenbuilders, are in favor of all this plaste-cccch, who is<br>left to draw a line in the sand?<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20141211/148e3a15/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Subject: Digest Footer<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 52, Issue 15<br>*********************************************<br></div></body></html>