<div dir="ltr">"<font face="Trebuchet MS, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, SunSans-Regular, sans-serif">Polystyrene is a petroleum-based plastic made from the styrene monomer"<br></font>In other words, small molecules of styrene base stock are strung together to form large chain molecules of polystyrene. The 0.1% of styrene in the finished product is likely unpolymerized leftovers. Otherwise, what is the rest of the 67 lbs per bundle composed of ? ...................N<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:38 PM, John Salmen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca" target="_blank">terrain@shaw.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Actually it is something to be considered. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">The EPS product I use is manufactured from polystyrene beads which combine styrene (0.1% by weight of finished product) and pentane (1% by weight of finished product). These beads representing 1.1% of the final product are manufactured in Alberta (about 1000 km from me). They are shipped to Vancouver (about 130 km from me) where they are manufactured into board stock using steam (local water and heat) and packaged into roughly 96 cu.ft. polyethylene wrapped bundles (88 sq.ft. of 2ml poly). <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Each bundle weighs about 67 lbs with .067 lbs (about 1 ounce) of styrene monomer and would insulate 64 sq. ft. of wall to roughly R40. 20 bundles could do the walls of a 1600 sq.ft. house – about 20 oz of styrene (equivalent to 10 milk jugs when they were made of styrene)<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">So basically I had about 6.7 lbs of polystyrene beads shipped 1000km then converted into 67 lbs of finished insulation wrapped in 88 sq.ft of poly ( and shipped 130km where it gets put into buildings and hopefully subsequently taken out in board form and put into other buildings or whatever things get recycled into in the future – probably milk jugs).<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I’m not sure I can do better than that at this point with less impact for a local solution that works well in my climate –<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Straw would have to be shipped an equivalent distance (we have no local wheat) – ironically it would take about 20 bales (about 900 lbs) to insulate an equivalent area which takes about a ½ acre of farmland to grow and about .1 lb (1.6oz) of petroleum derived fertilizer to generate the growth. Straw does not work in my climate.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">For cellulose the equivalent wall area or insulated area would be about 200 lbs of shredded newspaper – so I could collect and shred papers locally but I would still have to ship in 60 lbs or so of borates to make up that amount at at least 4 times the distance. Also we are getting more information that borates might not be as safe as we thought – not a well investigated material. Also I have spent a lot of time politically working on having newspaper recycled as pulp mills are a huge environmental liability in my region as is deforestation.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">For rockwool for walls the equivalent wall area would be about 162 lb and I would have to ship that about 3000 km (so double the weight and 3 times the distance – and 4 times the packaging). If I wanted to use a rockwool as a board material comparable to the eps for slabs the equivalent area weight would be about 800lbs (additional weight being formaldehyde binder for density). <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">So it is a complex decision making process. All design decisions are. Is 1oz of styrene as dangerous as 60 lbs of borate salt, chlorine pollution and tree loss, or potentially 600 lbs of formaldehyde glue, or even the soil loss and petro fertilizer usage from something as green as strawbales. I don’t know and getting information to know a little more is a continuous process - but am certainly not at this point going to accept simple arguments for simple materials having discovered long ago there is no such thing as a simple material. Some of the most ‘natural’ materials out there are still the most toxic and/or inappropriate. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">\<u></u><u></u></span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US"> Greenbuilding [mailto:<a href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn<br><b>Sent:</b> December-11-14 8:56 AM</span></p><div><div class="h5"><br><b>To:</b> Green Building<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p></div><div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">John: "<span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> In my case a foam brand is about 60 miles away "</span><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I doubt that. If it is like most products on this planet, it's ingredients span across all continents: soy from Nebraska, ingredient A from China, Ingredient B from the Philippines, canisters from Mexicon etc. </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">This the argument for simple building materials. Less ingredients, less travel. Cob: hay and mud from next door. Now that's green.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>Cell: <a href="tel:1%20347%20244%203016" value="+13472443016" target="_blank">1 347 244 3016</a> USA<br><a href="http://www.EcoBrooklyn.com" target="_blank">www.EcoBrooklyn.com</a><br>22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, John Salmen <<a href="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca" target="_blank">terrain@shaw.ca</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">So if diverting energy from the food stream and the deforestation that results is unacceptable in the case of soy foams – why is diverting energy from the paper stream and subsequent deforestation of NA acceptable? The question is density and the amount of a virgin material used to get a result – and then the question becomes appropriate virgin material. I don’t like bringing food material into the building or waste stream but it may be better than producing synthetic material – I don’t know?. </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">All insulations are simple – a material that is made to encapsulate air. . Cellulose or fibre material is odd because we are harvesting, processing and transporting a coarse material that either naturally encapsulates air or is made to do so rather than simply introducing air into a material in a geographically more local context – and most foams are produced close to the regions where they are marketed. In my case a foam brand is about 60 miles away whereas mineral wood is about 3000 miles.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Again not a defense of foam just trying to make sense of the discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US"> Greenbuilding [mailto:<a href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Abrams<br><b>Sent:</b> December-11-14 3:37 AM<br><b>To:</b> Green Building<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied energy was Polyiso strength on roof (ErgoDesk)</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">and that 5% that is soy has the carbon of the fertilizer and fuel it took to grow, harvest, transport, and process it. I would not doubt that is a greater EE factor than pure plastic. <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">not to mention, the diversion from feedstock. IOW's, how many more acres of Amazon forests does it take, to grow feedstock for raising cattle, because of the soy that was used for manufacturing insulation?<br><br>put another way, could you eat your insulation if you got hungry enough?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">AA<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#660000">Alan Abrams<b><br></b></span><i><span style="color:#666666">certified professional building designer, AIBD<br>certified passive house consultant, PHIUS</span></i><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:#666666">certified passive house builder, PHIUS<br></span></i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#666666">cell <a href="tel:202-437-8583" target="_blank">202-437-8583</a><br><a href="mailto:alan@abramsdesignbuild.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#666666">alan@abramsdesignbuild.com</span></a><br></span><a href="http://www.heliconworks.com/index2.html" target="_blank">HELICON WORKS <i>Achitecture and Education</i></a><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:02 PM, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <<a href="mailto:info@ecobrooklyn.com" target="_blank">info@ecobrooklyn.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">They tell me it's made from soybeans and pop bottles so it must be good.<br>Ross Elliott <u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">A whopping 5% of the foam is soy. The other 95% is just like any two part foam. Last time I checked. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">-- <br>Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>Cell: <a href="tel:1%20347%20244%203016" target="_blank">1 347 244 3016</a> USA<br><a href="http://www.EcoBrooklyn.com" target="_blank">www.EcoBrooklyn.com</a><br>22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br><br></span><br>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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