<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">Eh Jeff, thanks for the recommendations, support. Members od this group need to get their priorities in order of their needs. I don't build much anymore but have done a hefty share in my lifetime., and not trying to toot my horn about accomplishments, just see a need for better construction. Also, I never understood the economics of the 10-15 year roofs on million dollar homes.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">Back on track about EPS again, this shit has been used to build for several decades now, by people who were not satisfied with mediocre and declining wood products. The Dutch big on using the Foam and Concrete for Floating Homes along with many Architects worldwide very interesting stuff and the reason I blog and Tweet about it. An example from the US, shown herein, </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">- ESR-163 <a href="http://goo.gl/522C8h">http://goo.gl/522C8h</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">- <a href="http://strataus.com/us/pdf/esr.pdf">http://strataus.com/us/pdf/esr.pdf</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">- <a href="http://strataus.com/us/hr.pdf">http://strataus.com/us/hr.pdf</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">Canada has spawned many system manufacturers, </div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial narrow, sans-serif">- <a href="http://goo.gl/lkL3xm">http://goo.gl/lkL3xm</a></font><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">- <a href="http://goo.gl/fb7zQz">http://goo.gl/fb7zQz</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">-george</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><a href="http://about.me/StyroHome" target="_blank"><font><span></span><span></span>http://about.me/StyroHome</font></a><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Jeff Martin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jeff@open2learn.ca" target="_blank">jeff@open2learn.ca</a>></span> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Gennaro,<br>
<br>
I think you should cut Ergo/George a little slack - while he it
would be nice if he was clearer about what he does do and was more
open to (and politer about) a broader discussion of the pros and
cons of our building material choices, instead of boosting EPS above
all else, he has stimulated a very interesting (if somewhat
overheated) discussion on the relative merits of various insulation
materials!<span><span> :-) </span></span><br>
<br>
I will also note that he didn't claim that he isn't selling
"anything", rather that he isn't selling "any product". It appears
to me that, like many on this list, he sells his services and that
his claim of expertise is in the area of the use of EPS as a
structural, not just insulating, building material. While his
communications style doesn't seem to likely to be effective in
inspiring new people to share his zeal for EPS, I suspect the zeal
is genuine. <br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/12/2014 10:13 PM, Gennaro
Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Ergo you don't sell anything but you have a twitter
account <span>@styrohome? I'm very
skeptical.</span></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>Gennaro Brooks-Church<br>
Director, Eco Brooklyn Inc.<br>
Cell: <a href="tel:1%20347%20244%203016" value="+13472443016" target="_blank">1 347 244 3016</a> USA<br>
<a href="http://www.EcoBrooklyn.com" target="_blank">www.EcoBrooklyn.com</a><br>
22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 3:39 PM,
ErgoDesk <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ergodesk@gmail.com" target="_blank">ergodesk@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">Sorry about everyone getting
confusing info about EPS Composites, that get all EPS
covered with Thin-Shell Polymerized Concrete. The EPS
will always be embedded in this concrete shell, you can
also place your radioactive items in there for safety:-)</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Because we all know that EPS lasts
"forever," the biggest problem is finding a strong
concrete mix that will last as long. If mixed in the
mortar as small fibers or a woven mesh will make a super
strong GFRC mixes that will stick to the EPS very well.
Some builders are trying to us the extruded XPS on
foundations, but concrete will not stick to it. <a href="http://basalt-mesh.com/" target="_blank">http://basalt-mesh.com/</a></div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Roxul is made in western Canada at
it's Grand Forks plant not Maple Ridge, </div>
<ol style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-size:12.7272720336914px;line-height:14.6545457839966px">
<li style="margin:0px;padding:15px 15px 0px;border:0px;line-height:1.24;list-style:none;clear:none">
<div style="margin-bottom:4px">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:30px;overflow:hidden;display:inline-block;margin-right:85px">Roxul
Inc</div>
<div style="padding-top:4px"><span style="line-height:1.24;font-size:12.7272720336914px;font-weight:bold">Address:</span><span style="line-height:1.24;font-size:12.7272720336914px"> 6526 Industrial
Pk Way, Grand Forks, BC V0H 1H0, Canada</span><br>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li style="margin:0px;padding:0px 15px;border:0px;line-height:1.24;list-style:none;clear:both">
<div style="margin-top:14px">
<div style="margin-top:7px"><span style="font-weight:bold;margin-right:4px">Phone:</span><a title="Call via Hangouts" style="color:rgb(26,13,171)">+1 250-442-5253</a></div>
</div>
</li>
</ol>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">I do not sell any product, Styrofoam
or EPS, just inspiration smart people can build on.
follow me on.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Follow me on Twitter @styrohome</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><img src="cid:part5.06030402.09080204@open2learn.ca" alt="Inline image 1" height="422" width="562"></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><a href="http://about.me/StyroHome" target="_blank"><font><span></span><span></span>http://about.me/StyroHome</font></a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:22
AM, John Straube <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca" target="_blank">jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca</a>></span>
wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I
apologize if the “tone” was offensive. Wild is an
adjective that I leave up to others to decide. But
just re-read my post and remove wildly.<br>
<br>
The errors are numerically out by a factor of
early 100 in the case of EPS styrene content and
perhaps 5-10 times in the case of glue in rock
wool.<br>
<br>
Your information about rock wool and how they get
density is wrong. You said the majority of the
increase in rock wool density is glue, whereas 95%
or more of the increase in density is glue. That
is a massive difference when we talk about going
from 2 pcf batt to 8 pcf roofing board. You can
easily and simply look this up on the MSDS sheet
for any stone wool product or better yet visit the
local plant. I will not muddy the waters in this
post about how and why products resist heat flow.<br>
<br>
If I subtract the density of air from the EPS, 95%
or more of EPS foam is made of polystyrene. I am
sorry I was not clear. It is NOT 1.1%
polystyrene. Of the solid matter almost 100% is
polystyrene and fire retardants. That is a
massive difference.<br>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:59 AM, John Salmen <<a href="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca" target="_blank">terrain@shaw.ca</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi John<br>
> Wildly wrong?<br>
><br>
> My original information on the roxul
board came from a phone conversation<br>
> with their technical department so I
don't know John - they are a bit cagey<br>
> on the formaldehyde content but that is
what is used and if the rock density<br>
> increases the insulation value drops
(more rock fibre less air?? - or am I<br>
> missing something - are these special
rocks being used?. I've used the board<br>
> - its nasty, dusty, easy to crush and
deform under foot. I do like using the<br>
> batt product in projects as an
alternative to glass. I did not know they had<br>
> mining in BC but your right the
downstream operation is in grand forks (523<br>
> km) so about 4x the distance for a
finished product though it is a<br>
> downstream operation from the various
mines so there would be more transport<br>
> of heavy byproduct to grand forks.<br>
><br>
> The 1.1% is the polystyrene beads so I'm
not sure what the difference is you<br>
> are talking about as yes it contains the
pentane which has a weight but then<br>
> is expanded dispersed and replaced with
the air - the monomer content is<br>
> given as .1% by ALL manuf. - yes stuff
varies in manuf. but since the<br>
> monomer represents a cost I doubt manuf.
vary it intentionally - not like<br>
> adding more butter to make it better type
of thing. Materials need<br>
> ingredients - the work is to find
products with the fewest ingredients! I<br>
> don't understand your comment that a
board is 95% monomer that is misleading<br>
> unless monomer is a new word for 'air' -
it is air and yes I know what steam<br>
> is - difficult thing to contain in a
product?<br>
><br>
> I think you get the point of the comments
I was making and I don't see wild<br>
> inaccuracies but I certainly do feel
belittled by the tone of the response.<br>
> Yes monomers are not as stable as was
thought or is advertised. Styrene is<br>
> mutagenic so are many wood fibres and
dust, pigments, chlorines, perfumes,<br>
> etc. We have to realize that most of what
we synthesize is also 'naturally'<br>
> occurring - the built environment is as I
said a toxic environment and the<br>
> toxicity increases as compounds
concentrate and merge to form other<br>
> compounds. You think that cellulose
insulation is free of the dioxins from<br>
> the bleaching process? Or tampons and
toilet paper?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Greenbuilding [mailto:<a href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<br>
> On Behalf Of John Straube<br>
> Sent: December-12-14 5:18 AM<br>
> To: Green Building<br>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] embodied
energy was Polyiso strength on roof<br>
> (ErgoDesk)<br>
><br>
> I think the supply chain issue Alan and
John are discussing is very valid<br>
> and does indeed show how complex it is to
make the "best" decision But John,<br>
> you have some facts wildly wrong. That
about 1 pound of EPS can do 1 sq ft<br>
> to R40 is correct although most people us
Canadian Type 2, which is a higher<br>
> density and R4 per inch. A rounding
error.<br>
><br>
> But that high density stone wool is made
by adding glue is not true. A 2<br>
> pound per cubic foot batt is definitely
95% or more stone, and the higher<br>
> density products like 4 pcf wall
insulation or 8 pcf roof insulation have<br>
> MUCH more stone and may have a lower % of
glue. You could go to factory<br>
> and watch the stream of fibers on the
conveyor belt being squished to<br>
> different densities. The primary
difference IS the amount of fibers in the<br>
> product.<br>
> Also, you have a Roxul stone wool plant
in Maple Ridge BC - which is not<br>
> 3000 km from where you are, it is very
likely closer than the styrene plant<br>
> in Alberta. It is true that the amount
of rock wool you have to ship for<br>
> R40 is a LOT more, more than double
(e.g., 3.3 pounds per square foot if you<br>
> did it all exterior, I would use 2 pcf
batt in the cavity to roughly get the<br>
> first R20 and then 5" of pcf on the
exterior for the next R20, so lets say<br>
> 2.6 pounds per square foot versus 1
pounds per square foot)<br>
><br>
> The claim that 0.067 pounds of styrene
makes 67 pounds of EPS is also<br>
> incorrect. Norbert is correct. It is true
that a 1 pound sample of EPS may<br>
> contain only 0.1% of styrene monomer:
this is one of the concerns with<br>
> styrofoam to some (not me) because the
monomer can move and potentially have<br>
> health effects. It is often higher than
0.1% which is the problem. But the<br>
> remainder of that sample is polystyrene,
the polymer. Pentane is mostly<br>
> removed at the factor during expansion
and moulding, and replaced with air<br>
> which weighs about 0.075 pounds per cubic
foot. So of the 1.2 pcf for EPS,<br>
> 1.1+ is polystyrene. To make polystyrene
you react the styrene monomer to<br>
> polymerize it. So a pound of EPS in
typical foam board is over 95% from<br>
> styrene monomer. Not 1%. The steam is
used to expand the beads and mold<br>
> them, it is not part of the chemical
reaction and does not become part of<br>
> the product.<br>
><br>
> How to compare the impact of 1 pound of
styrene produced 1000 km away and<br>
> 2.6 pounds of stone melted 400 km away
and 3.5 pounds of cellulose with<br>
> 0.5pound of borate? I dont know. This
is tough. Except for Ergo who knows<br>
> the answer before the analysis begins:
EPS is always best.<br>
><br>
> John<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Dec 11, 2014, at 11:38 PM, John Salmen
<<a href="mailto:terrain@shaw.ca" target="_blank">terrain@shaw.ca</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Actually it is something to be
considered.<br>
>><br>
>> The EPS product I use is manufactured
from polystyrene beads which combine<br>
> styrene (0.1% by weight of finished
product) and pentane (1% by weight of<br>
> finished product). These beads
representing 1.1% of the final product are<br>
> manufactured in Alberta (about 1000 km
from me). They are shipped to<br>
> Vancouver (about 130 km from me) where
they are manufactured into board<br>
> stock using steam (local water and heat)
and packaged into roughly 96 cu.ft.<br>
> polyethylene wrapped bundles (88 sq.ft.
of 2ml poly).<br>
>><br>
>> Each bundle weighs about 67 lbs with
.067 lbs (about 1 ounce) of<br>
>> styrene monomer and would insulate 64
sq. ft. of wall to roughly R40.<br>
>> 20 bundles could do the walls of a
1600 sq.ft. house - about 20 oz of<br>
>> styrene (equivalent to 10 milk jugs
when they were made of styrene)<br>
>><br>
>> So basically I had about 6.7 lbs of
polystyrene beads shipped 1000km then<br>
> converted into 67 lbs of finished
insulation wrapped in 88 sq.ft of poly (<br>
> and shipped 130km where it gets put into
buildings and hopefully<br>
> subsequently taken out in board form and
put into other buildings or<br>
> whatever things get recycled into in the
future - probably milk jugs).<br>
>><br>
>> I'm not sure I can do better than
that at this point with less impact<br>
>> for a local solution that works well
in my climate -<br>
>><br>
>> Straw would have to be shipped an
equivalent distance (we have no local<br>
> wheat) - ironically it would take about
20 bales (about 900 lbs) to insulate<br>
> an equivalent area which takes about a ½
acre of farmland to grow and about<br>
> .1 lb (1.6oz) of petroleum derived
fertilizer to generate the growth. Straw<br>
> does not work in my climate.<br>
>><br>
>> For cellulose the equivalent wall
area or insulated area would be about<br>
> 200 lbs of shredded newspaper - so I
could collect and shred papers locally<br>
> but I would still have to ship in 60 lbs
or so of borates to make up that<br>
> amount at at least 4 times the distance.
Also we are getting more<br>
> information that borates might not be as
safe as we thought - not a well<br>
> investigated material. Also I have spent
a lot of time politically working<br>
> on having newspaper recycled as pulp
mills are a huge environmental<br>
> liability in my region as is
deforestation.<br>
>><br>
>> For rockwool for walls the equivalent
wall area would be about 162 lb and<br>
> I would have to ship that about 3000 km
(so double the weight and 3 times<br>
> the distance - and 4 times the
packaging). If I wanted to use a rockwool as<br>
> a board material comparable to the eps
for slabs the equivalent area weight<br>
> would be about 800lbs (additional weight
being formaldehyde binder for<br>
> density).<br>
>><br>
>> So it is a complex decision making
process. All design decisions are. Is<br>
> 1oz of styrene as dangerous as 60 lbs of
borate salt, chlorine pollution and<br>
> tree loss, or potentially 600 lbs of
formaldehyde glue, or even the soil<br>
> loss and petro fertilizer usage from
something as green as strawbales. I<br>
> don't know and getting information to
know a little more is a continuous<br>
> process - but am certainly not at this
point going to accept simple<br>
> arguments for simple materials having
discovered long ago there is no such<br>
> thing as a simple material. Some of the
most 'natural' materials out there<br>
> are still the most toxic and/or
inappropriate.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
> John F Straube<br>
> <a href="mailto:jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca" target="_blank">jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.JohnStraube.com" target="_blank">www.JohnStraube.com</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
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<br>
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<a href="mailto:jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca" target="_blank">jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca</a><br>
<a href="http://www.JohnStraube.com" target="_blank">www.JohnStraube.com</a><br>
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