<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yiv7647382198"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_4792"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_4791" style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6368"><span class="yiv7647382198" style="">> </span><span class="yiv7647382198" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6365" style="font-size:11.0pt;">If the market economy has achieved anything it is probably the erosion of servitude and that is probably a good thing.</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6374"><br clear="none"><span class="yiv7647382198" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6365" style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_5223">Now perhaps I'm being optimistic - but aren't we smart enough to isolate the good things of different systems and combine them?</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_6478" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_6477" dir="ltr">The current 'pseudo-market' economy is inherently adversarial, does not
account for the common good and has no disincentives to accumulate more
than you need.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_5959" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_5710" dir="ltr">We subsidise Big-Ag, they produce way more then we need, so we export it, causing market distortions there. We also feed excess food to animals in factory farms, create demand for factory-farmed products, make people obese, then sell them pills for man-made epidemics of chronic diseases like type-2 diabetes. wtf?<br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_6215" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_6214" dir="ltr">Even without the subsidy, in a more market economy, we would probably still get similar results. Somehow we need to find incentives to provide useful good and services, and not create artificial demand.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_7101" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429792014853_5228">~sanjay</div><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv7647382198yqt4330274633" id="yiv7647382198yqt39466"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6353" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6352" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div dir="ltr" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6351"> <hr id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_7207" size="1"> <font id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6350" face="Arial" size="2"> <b id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_7500"><span id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_7499" style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> John Salmen <terrain@shaw.ca><br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> 'sanjay jain' <sanjayjainuk@yahoo.co.uk>; 'Green Building' <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org> <br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 21, 2015 7:25 PM<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Greenbuilding] Staggering 1/2 tonne per person per year cement production!<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <div class="yiv7647382198y_msg_container" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6358"><br clear="none"><div id="yiv7647382198"><style>#yiv7647382198 --
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#yiv7647382198 </style><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6357"><div class="yiv7647382198WordSection1" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6356"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6355"><span id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6354" style="font-size:11.0pt;">There could be another subset – ‘think they want to’ which could be the worst. I don’t really think the ‘gift economy’ can really be thought of as an economic thing. I live in a place where aspects of a longstanding gifting (potlatch) still exists. There is a big mind shift in this in that you have to think of the property or gift as something that doesn’t really exist as an object in itself with a pricetag (that is a market based economy that needs to create currency of things). In a gifting situation the object(s) are about the relationships and maintaining the relationship usually involves giving a gift back or simply maintaining a place in the community. In this way in the local indigenous community that surrounds me money earned by one family member is shared in very odd ways that are hard to comprehend.</span></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_7210"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6360"><span id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6359" style="font-size:11.0pt;">It gets very complex and lots of anthros have argued about how such cultures work.</span></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_7252"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6362"><span id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6361" style="font-size:11.0pt;">I think one of the closest concepts is the idea of being in service to your community (or something) and bringing certain skills to that that can be seen as adding something ‘extra’. The building trades in some ways are a remnant of this in that we still have a concept of a ‘quality job’ done by a ‘master craftsperson’ or a ‘custom’ job. In that way the ‘extra quality’ or attention provided by the ‘special skills’ becomes the gift. I don’t think this is effectively in practice anymore but the myth remains and everyone still likes to point out the ‘special’ attention details in their house received.</span></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6363"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6364"><span id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6365" style="font-size:11.0pt;">If the market economy has achieved anything it is probably the erosion of servitude and that is probably a good thing.</span></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6366"><span id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_6367" style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_7507"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429703282215_7508"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7647382198qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv7647382198yqt2602232668" id="yiv7647382198yqt99880"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" lang="EN-US"> Greenbuilding [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>sanjay jain<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> April-21-15 3:42 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Green Building<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Staggering 1/2 tonne per person per year cement production!</span></div></div></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal"> </div><div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3199"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">> There are plenty of steady-state economic economists out there but our linear growth system doesn’t operate on that premise. All the green buildings in the world won’t save us from the inevitable limits we’re already up against. </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_4106"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_4112"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Thanks Dan,</span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3454"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3482"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">I had not heard of the term Steady State Economics - Found this: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3458" target="_blank" href="http://steadystate.org/">http://steadystate.org/</a> </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_4069"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_4070"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Will be reading more on this. I personally would love to see humanity move towards a <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3966" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy">Gift Economy,</a> where people provide goods and services to each other because they want to, not because they have to (or think they have to).</span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3686"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3483"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">~sanjay</span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3374"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3373"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3820"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3819"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3818"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style=""></span><hr size="1" width="100%" align="center"></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> Antonioli Dan <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:solardan26@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:solardan26@gmail.com">solardan26@gmail.com</a>><br clear="none"><b>To:</b> sanjay jain <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:sanjayjainuk@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank" href="mailto:sanjayjainuk@yahoo.co.uk">sanjayjainuk@yahoo.co.uk</a>>; Green Building <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org">greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> <br clear="none"><b>Cc:</b> "<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a>" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a>> <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 19, 2015 1:17 PM<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Staggering 1/2 tonne per person per year cement production!</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3823"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="yiv7647382198"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3822"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3821"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">There are plenty of steady-state economic economists out there but our linear growth system doesn’t operate on that premise. All the green buildings in the world won’t save us from the inevitable limits we’re already up against. </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_4099"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_4101"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Dan</span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_4100"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_4176"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3824"><div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yqt68050"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_4172"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">On Apr 19, 2015, at 8:28 AM, sanjay jain <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:sanjayjainuk@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank" href="mailto:sanjayjainuk@yahoo.co.uk">sanjayjainuk@yahoo.co.uk</a>> wrote:</span></div></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3826"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429654074339_3825"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_3806"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">> can ( & will!!) add up to tipping the scales, if we just</span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_3836"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">> keep at it for the next few centuries.</span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_3807"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_3875"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_6711"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Even under the most optimistic climate models we don't have 1 century let alone a few. Technology is neither the problem or the solution to our current woes. Economics and culture are.</span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_6740"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_6741"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">I recently attended Brooking's "<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_6916" target="_blank" href="http://connect.brookings.edu/register-to-attend-achieving-economic-growth">Achieving strong economic growth</a>" there were a lot of smart people, not one asked why we need perpetual economic growth. The underlying assumption is that we need more and more goods and services to be happy.</span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_6990"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_7049"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">We keep innovating to produce more and more food, saying that the poor are hungry, but there are now more obese people on the planet than hungry ones. The issue is distribution. Not to mention that 65 billion (10 billion in the US) land animals are tortured in factory farms each year... <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_7532" target="_blank" href="http://www.democracynow.org/2015/4/7/cowspiracy_as_california_faces_drought_film">35% water use in California</a> is for animal agriculture.</span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_7175"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_7174"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">I encourage folks on this list to promote "think green" as well as "buy green". </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_7590"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_7095"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">~sanjay</span></div></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_3950"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_3949"><div id="yiv7647382198yui_3_16_0_1_1429455819698_3948"><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style=""></span><hr size="1" width="100%" align="center"></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> Frank Tettemer <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:frank@livingsol.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:frank@livingsol.com">frank@livingsol.com</a>><br clear="none"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a> <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:06 PM<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Staggering 1/2 tonne per person per year cement production!</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none">Getting back to the cement, it is simply staggering. It makes our <br clear="none">individual efforts seem pointless.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">/Could someone tell me who I need to contact to get my 1/2 tonne of <br clear="none">cement? :)/<br clear="none"><br clear="none">~sanjay<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I don't know, either san jay, to whom we must request, in order to <br clear="none">receive our own half ton.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">But I do know that the efforts are, and have been, point-full. These <br clear="none">steady small developments,( in lightening the load on the Planet, in <br clear="none">attempting the Living Building Challenge, in becoming responsible for <br clear="none">your own energy production, repair, and consumption, ) can ( & will!!) <br clear="none">add up to tipping the scales, if we just keep at it for the next few <br clear="none">centuries.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Think back, how 20-30 years ago, solar energy had such a lethargy of <br clear="none">marketing and slow sales, and high expense. Yet now, the accumulated <br clear="none">efforts, of proponents of solar energy as a viable alternative, are now <br clear="none">being viewed as credible. Many people have kept at it, year after year, <br clear="none">until the scales have been tipped, and we'll get to see more and more <br clear="none">villages becoming electrically self sufficient, like in Europe.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I just really would like to view all our green building, natural <br clear="none">building, efforts as that of the-glass-half-full;<br clear="none">quite point-full, well developed thinking, over the past three decades, <br clear="none">and frankly, quite expectant of positive changes,;<br clear="none">rather than to consider our efforts as the-glass-half-empty, as being <br clear="none">point-less.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Opti-Mist-Me,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">-- <br clear="none">Frank Tettemer<br clear="none">Living Sol ~ Building and Design<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.livingsol.com/">www.livingsol.com</a><br clear="none">613 756 3884<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Greenbuilding mailing list<br clear="none">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Greenbuilding mailing list<br clear="none">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span></div></div></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div class="yiv7647382198MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div> </div> </div></div> </div></div></div></div></body></html>