<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>John, </div><div><br></div><div>My comments below. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Apr 10, 2016, at 7:11 AM, John Straube <<a href="mailto:jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca">jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dan<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The loss equation is<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Heat Flow = Area * Temperature / R-value<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So, the statement that there are diminishing returns is absolutely true<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">But the claim that you wont get energy savings is flatly, provable, unquestionable false.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If we’re splitting hairs then, yes, you can get “energy savings” by investing in larger and more robust insulation, but the previous statement that doubling the insulation of a hot water heater would cut its heat loss in half is not true. Touch the side of any modern hot water heater and see if you can feel any heat. You won’t, so the insulation blanket won’t really accomplish much for a new hot water heater. Yes, it will do something…but what that something is won’t be determined by calculations, which is why I prefer real-time, site specific measurement….which leads me back to see if there is an integrated digital timer/meter instead of having to install two separate units. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Going for 16” of cellulose insulation to 32” of cellulose insulation will cut heat flow through the ceiling in half.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don’t have time to dig up the stats to show that at least some research claims this is not true. Energy upgrade incentives won’t cover the cost of an additional 16” of cellulose when the first 16” does most of the work. Even in progressive cities like Berkeley where they have aggressive climate change goals, they will not pay for that additional 16”. </div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Now it is entirely valid to ask, is that reduction worth the cost, the hassle, the environmental investment. But making such decisions with the false belief that it does not save energy results in bad decisions.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And it’s equally bad to assume that “more is good.” </div><div><br></div><div>Remember, buildings could care a less if they’re insulated. And in fact, they last longer and are more durable if they aren’t insulated. It’s the biological species inside the building that wants the insulation, not the building. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">How does this apply to hotwater heaters?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A top of the line water heater will have insulation of 2” of foam which in service performs at maybe R14, likely less. The old fiberglass insulated tanks might have been insulated to as little as R-5, but many where insulated to R-8 or so.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Adding R-10 any of these tanks will significantly reduce the heat lost on standby. By over half for an old tank but by about a quarter even in a new best in class tank.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As noted, the heat loss through piping is significant, so ensuring that there is a loop to avoid thermosiphoning and some insulation along pipes is definitely important before going beyond standard modern quality tanks.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The biggest heat loss for a modern hot water heater is through the uninsulated pipes, and you’ll get a much bigger bang for the buck if you insulated the entire hot water lines (as required by many green certification systems). </div><div><br></div><div>When I directed a home energy upgrade program several years ago we energy upgraded dozens of old homes and only a few had hot water heaters old enough to justify installing an insulation jacket. And if you’ve ever installed one you’ll see why they don’t work as well as they’re claimed to. Under ideal laboratory conditions where so many variables are controlled you can show some improvements, but not a lot. Again, the next time you see a hot water heater put your hand on the side of it and see if you can feel any heat. You won’t. The side will be cold and 98% of the “blanket” covers that cold surface. The hot and cold lines on top will be warm, so that’s where you want to insulate. </div><div><br></div><div>And all of this aside, investing in solar thermal is the best overall strategy for reducing hot water energy waste. I’d rather put the time and energy into a net-zero energy hot water system with monitoring and measuring than splitting hairs on redundant insulation. Then gain, I’m an energy geek like just about everyone else in here so don’t be surprised if you see me installing a hot water jacket…or two, or three…..</div><div><br></div><div>Dan</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></a></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Lucida Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Greenbuilding [<a href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Antonioli Dan<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>April 9, 2016 22:11<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Green Building <<a href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Greenbuilding] Water heater timer energy savings?<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">There’s only so much insulation value you can get per application. I don’t have the “calories” per calculation, but insulation has its diminishing returns. 14-16” of ceiling insulation is about all you’re going to get from that application….some people think that if you keep going up into 2-3 feet that you’ll get more energy savings and it’s not true. That said I won’t want to go down an insulation rabbit hole. The post, once again, is about digital timers and integrated watt meters. If you want to start another discussion about insulation please do. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Dan<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On Apr 9, 2016, at 6:48 PM, Reuben Deumling <<a href="mailto:9watts@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">9watts@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Antonioli Dan <<a href="mailto:solardan26@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">solardan26@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Most modern hot water heaters do not need blankets as they are redundant, and redundant insulation doesn’t do much. <o:p></o:p></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Hm.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">I'm looking forward to Rob Tom's response to that.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">As for me, I'm not so sure about that. I can well imagine that some modern water heaters are better insulated (but probably not as efficient as some older designs), but how can adding more insulation with a payback of 1 year or even five years be redundant? I can't imagine that the embodied energy in a bit of fiberglass (or recycled jeans) would tip the scales.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>