<div dir="ltr">We worked on an interesting off-grid house 1/2 hr north of Toronto once, which was designed not to freeze when it was unoccupied in the winter. Slab on grade, with earth bermed north wall. Substantial interior mass. High performance windows with different low e coatings for south and west orientations. 20 year ago PV panels. It was designed to never get below 50F and in fact has never gotten below 60F when unoccupied in the winter. In this case, the slab was coupled to the ground (no insulation) .....................N<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 6:46 AM, Alan Abrams <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alan@abramsdesignbuild.com" target="_blank">alan@abramsdesignbuild.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">the Passive House Planning Package (PHPP) has a function to evaluate "Heat Losses Via The Ground." The variables include all manner of local climate data, average ground surface temp. and water table depth, as well as the thermal conductivity and heat capacity of the soil, and the depth of your assemblies.<br><br>The thermal conductivity value is a significant factor. For example, the program's embedded default values for solid rock range from R-0.02 to R-0.07, whereas dry sand ranges between R-0.6 to R-1.0. <br><br>This is still playing in a fairly narrow range, given (as Norbert says) the delta is pretty small. I did a "what if" on a passive house project which was based on 9" of high density foam under the slab, (in order to hit the magic 4.75 KBtu/SF/year space heat demand), changing it to 2 inches of foam. It saved something like $14 per year in natural gas.<br><br>Nevertheless, in modeling projects in mixed humid climates, I find that it is much easier to reduce heating loads than cooling loads--because latent loads are not very response to insulation. <br><br>This leads me to the assumption that it might be best to sacrifice a little heat loss through the slab in winter, to gain the heat sink effect in summer. <br><br>-aa </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="m_-3362228273660089811gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><font size="2"><span style="color:rgb(102,0,0)">Alan Abrams, CPBD, AIBD</span></font><b style="color:rgb(102,0,0)"><br></b><i><span style="color:rgb(102,102,102)">Associate Designer <a href="http://www.heliconworksarchitects.com/" target="_blank">Helicon Works Architects</a></span></i></font></div><div dir="ltr"><i style="font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(102,102,102)">Certified Professional Building Designer, <a href="http://aibd.org/" target="_blank">American Institute of Building Design</a> </span></i><br></div><div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><i><span style="color:rgb(102,102,102)">President, <a href="http://ncbdc.com/" target="_blank">National Council of Building Designer Certification</a><br></span></i></font><div><font style="color:rgb(102,102,102)" size="1"><font size="2">cell </font></font><font style="color:rgb(102,102,102)" size="1"><font size="2"><a href="tel:(202)%20437-8583" value="+12024378583" target="_blank">202-437-8583</a></font></font><font style="color:rgb(102,102,102)" size="1"><font size="2"><br>
<a style="color:rgb(102,102,102)" href="mailto:alan@abramsdesignbuild.com" target="_blank">alan@abramsdesignbuild.com</a><br></font></font><br></div><div><img src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B0pCGxetP6vrdGtJbnhzLUc2Z00&revid=0B0pCGxetP6vrQ0JVYVNLazhZZUJOZFJwZ1hrdWNYd1VMa0swPQ" style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-size:x-small" width="89" height="96"><span style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-size:x-small"> </span><img src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B0pCGxetP6vrZ3VmemVFVTdQeUk&revid=0B0pCGxetP6vrTlJiRUkxdVEyRFozenYvVWV5MGF2ajNtK01NPQ" style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-size:x-small" width="95" height="96"><br></div><div><font style="color:rgb(102,102,102)" size="1"><br></font></div><div><font style="color:rgb(102,102,102)" size="1"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 12:42 AM, Lynelle Hamilton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lynelle@lahamilton.com" target="_blank">lynelle@lahamilton.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000066" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face="Arial">Thanks, John.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial">Frost protected shakkow foundation, yes. but not
t a purchased "system" for cost and delivery time issues. Am
planning to construct my own, Soil is a mixture of sand and
sandy loam. Land around me is damp, although the previous
cottage had a crawl space that was dry. Those are the concerns
with regard to insulation. Because the perimeter (and a centre
"channel" that is to support an interior load bearing wall have
to be 30psi, I will glue a 25 psi skirt around the perimeter,
with additional width at each corner. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial">Lynelle</font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831moz-cite-prefix">On 2017-10-03 11:00 PM, John Salmen
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Depends
on perimeter depth. Are you doing a frost protected
foundation? Or are the footings below freezing and fully
wrapped? consideration on the perimeter and bridging. I’ve
typically gone R20 on slab but R30 on perimeter.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_-3362228273660089811_m_-4255419947811522831__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"> Greenbuilding
[<a class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">mailto:greenbuilding-bounces@<wbr>lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lynelle Hamilton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 3, 2017 7:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">greenbuilding@lists.bioenergyl<wbr>ists.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Greenbuilding] Unifoam vs
Plastispan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class="m_-3362228273660089811h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p><span>Norbert, is the 50F true
when the slab is shallow (e.g. essentially on packed earth
that is 16" below grade?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span>Lynelle</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2017-10-03 7:19 PM, Norbert Senf
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Way high. If you do a payback analysis
for the last R-10 it is close to infinite. Ground
temperature around here is 50F, so your maximum
differential is maybe 20 degrees ............... N<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 7:11 PM,
Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn <<a href="mailto:info@ecobrooklyn.com" target="_blank">info@ecobrooklyn.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">R-35 under slab is high or low?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Gennaro<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 6:59
PM, John Straube <<a href="mailto:jfstraube@gmail.com" target="_blank">jfstraube@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am not sure what is special
about your slab, but standard XPS (25 psi max)
has been used for decades. Hence, EPS with more
than 25 psi seems odd anywhere except where a
concentrated load occurs. Remember, 25 psi is
3500 psf, which is more than most soils can
take. But to answer part of the question I have
use PlastiFab EPS of wide range of strengths
successfully for a long time, and have no
experience with Uniform.<br>
Of course insulating with R-35 under slab seems
very odd… the result of bizarre interior
conditions or bizarre calculation methods?<br>
<br>
<span class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831m-8133840847980594306im">> On
Oct 3, 2017, at 6:24 PM, Lynelle Hamilton <<a href="mailto:lynelle@lahamilton.com" target="_blank">lynelle@lahamilton.com</a>>
wrote:</span><br>
<span class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831m-8133840847980594306im">></span><br>
<span class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831m-8133840847980594306im">> I am
insulating under a floating pad. The engineer
has specified 25psi under the slab and 30 psi
on outer edges. I've been looking at two
products: Unifoam 25/30 and Plastifab 25/30.
Aiming for R35 under the slab. Price
differential is significant (Unifoam is nearly
$3000 more) for the house.</span><br>
<span class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831m-8133840847980594306im">></span><br>
<span class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831m-8133840847980594306im">> Has
anyone had experience with either product?
From the specs, Unifoam appears to absorb less
water and has less deflection, but both are
within the ASTM spec for the issue.</span><br>
<span class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831m-8133840847980594306im">></span><br>
<span class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831m-8133840847980594306im">> Many
thanks for any insights!</span><br>
<span class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831m-8133840847980594306im">></span><br>
<span class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831m-8133840847980594306im">>
Lynelle Hamilton</span><br>
<span class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831m-8133840847980594306im">></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> Virus-free. <a href="http://www.avast.com" target="_blank">www.avast.com</a><br>
>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the
email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a><br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List
Settings use the web page<br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.or<wbr>g/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi<wbr>ng_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Greenbuilding mailing list<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br>
<a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings
use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.or<wbr>g/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi<wbr>ng_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Greenbuilding mailing list<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.or<wbr>g/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi<wbr>ng_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Norbert Senf<br>
Masonry Stove Builders<br>
25 Brouse Road, RR 5<br>
Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0<br>
<a href="tel:(819)%20647-5092" value="+18196475092" target="_blank">819.647.5092</a><br>
<a href="http://www.heatkit.com" target="_blank">www.heatkit.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Greenbuilding mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.or<wbr>g/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi<wbr>ng_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div id="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<table class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831MsoNormalTable" style="border:none;border-top:solid #d3d4de 1.0pt" cellpadding="0" border="1">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width:41.25pt;border:none;padding:9.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt" width="55">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none"><img id="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831_x0000_i1025" src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" width="46" height="29" border="0"></span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
<td style="width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:9.0pt .75pt .75pt .75pt" width="470">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:13.5pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#41424e">Virus-free.
<a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><span style="color:#4453ea">www.avast.com</span></a>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class="m_-3362228273660089811h5">
<br>
<fieldset class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Greenbuilding mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="m_-3362228273660089811m_-4255419947811522831moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.or<wbr>g/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi<wbr>ng_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></pre>
</div></div></blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Greenbuilding mailing list<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.or<wbr>g/mailman/listinfo/greenbuildi<wbr>ng_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Greenbuilding mailing list<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a href="mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org">Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.<wbr>org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/<wbr>greenbuilding_lists.<wbr>bioenergylists.org</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Norbert Senf<br>Masonry Stove Builders<br>25 Brouse Road, RR 5<br>Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0<br>819.647.5092<br><a href="http://www.heatkit.com" target="_blank">www.heatkit.com</a></div>
</div>