<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="auto">In my humble opinion, the biggest consideration is creating a new rain screen to complement your freshly insulated wall. An uninsulated or poorly wall cavity can get wet and will dry out pretty quickly, so little rot will occur. However, an insulated cavity (no matter the insulation type) will have trouble drying out because less heat is flowing through it. So, to ensure bulk water isn't getting into the cavity, you need to replace siding and windows too.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If you can't ensure a good rain barrier, then yeah, a good layer of insulation will cause your framing to rot. No doubt.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div id="composer_signature" dir="auto"><div style="font-size:85%;color:#575757" dir="auto">Sent from my phone </div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br></div><div style="font-size:100%;color:#000000" dir="auto"><!-- originalMessage --><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: greenbuilding-request@lists.bioenergylists.org </div><div>Date: 11/27/19 1:01 PM (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org </div><div>Subject: Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 99, Issue 2 </div><div><br></div></div>Send Greenbuilding mailing list submissions to<br> greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> greenbuilding-request@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> greenbuilding-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Greenbuilding digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br> barrier? (Reuben Deumling) (Gordon West)<br> 2. Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br> barrier? (Stephen Collette)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:14:36 -0700<br>From: Gordon West <gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com><br>To: greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed<br> house without vapor barrier? (Reuben Deumling)<br>Message-ID: <09E24879-E3AC-4554-BDE0-5A9E22668971@rtnewmexico.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br><br>You will have no moisture problems if you:<br><br>Don?t put a vapor barrier on the outside of the wall;<br><br>Use cellulose insulation.<br><br>Best, Gordon<br><br><br><br><br>> On Nov 26, 2019, at 11:00 AM, greenbuilding-request@lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:<br>> <br>> Send Greenbuilding mailing list submissions to<br>> greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>> greenbuilding-request@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>> greenbuilding-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>> than "Re: Contents of Greenbuilding digest..."<br>> <br>> <br>> Today's Topics:<br>> <br>> 1. Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br>> barrier? (Reuben Deumling)<br>> 2. Re: Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br>> barrier? (Mike O'Brien)<br>> 3. Re: Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br>> barrier? (Clarke Olsen)<br>> 4. Re: Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br>> barrier? (Reuben Deumling)<br>> 5. Re: Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br>> barrier? (Joe Killian)<br>> 6. Re: Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br>> barrier? (Reuben Deumling)<br>> 7. Re: Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br>> barrier? (john salmen)<br>> 8. Re: Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br>> barrier? (john salmen)<br>> 9. Re: Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br>> barrier? (John Straube)<br>> 10. Re: Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor<br>> barrier? (Reuben Deumling)<br>> <br>> <br>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 1<br>> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 20:03:38 -0800<br>> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com><br>> To: Greenbuilding <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house<br>> without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID:<br>> <CAE5fceAY_YF1=JVSWKhyU+W3M70jGjfGDHnhJfiMR_172WKvww@mail.gmail.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you smart<br>> greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I would like<br>> to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been cautioned by<br>> five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the walls in an old house:<br>> <br>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After talking<br>> to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 years or<br>> more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor barrier, it will<br>> trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They did a lot of<br>> insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of structural repairs in<br>> the 1990's on those houses.<br>> <br>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom.<br>> <br>> Thanks very much<br>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191125/bb89e68f/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 2<br>> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 21:09:21 -0800<br>> From: Mike O'Brien <obrien@hevanet.com><br>> To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed<br>> house without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID: <A328F4C2-3C95-4C5E-B183-26CA2BA3CAE8@hevanet.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> Hi, Reuben?<br>> <br>> It would make sense to install vapor retarders and air barriers to keep moisture out of the walls, where it will condense during winter. Are the local guys saying that can?t be done? Or even if it could they still would not insulate the walls?<br>> <br>> Usually our old frame buildings have shingles or board siding over shiplap, not plywood or OSB, so in our climate a wall can transfer moisture to the outside. Are these walls different?<br>> <br>> Best, Mike<br>> Sent from my iPhone<br>> <br>>> On Nov 25, 2019, at 8:06 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com> wrote:<br>>> <br>>> ?I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you smart greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I would like to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been cautioned by five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the walls in an old house:<br>>> <br>>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After talking to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 years or more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor barrier, it will trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They did a lot of insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of structural repairs in the 1990's on those houses.<br>>> <br>>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom. <br>>> <br>>> Thanks very much <br>>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191125/927cea2b/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 3<br>> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 00:11:02 -0500<br>> From: Clarke Olsen <prismoidal@gmail.com><br>> To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed<br>> house without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID: <57382591-1187-4A47-93B6-DDD2C7649A77@fairpoint.net><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> Gave me a turn? I blew cellulose into the walls of an 1852 church 43 years ago. So far so good: there is really no reason <br>> for moisture to be trapped in the walls. We also painted it in ?75 (last was 1910),and the paint never peeled; just started to powder <br>> after 17 years. It did (does) have a 10/16 pitch, a good overhang, and nice clear 1 inch board & batten siding.<br>> <br>> Clarke Olsen<br>> clarkeolsendesign.com<br>> 373 route 203<br>> Spencertown, NY 12165 <br>> USA<br>> 518-392-4640<br>> colsen@taconic.net<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>>> On Nov 25, 2019, at 11:03 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com> wrote:<br>>> <br>>> I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you smart greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I would like to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been cautioned by five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the walls in an old house:<br>>> <br>>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After talking to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 years or more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor barrier, it will trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They did a lot of insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of structural repairs in the 1990's on those houses.<br>>> <br>>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom. <br>>> <br>>> Thanks very much <br>>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191126/215e2c58/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 4<br>> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 21:58:49 -0800<br>> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com><br>> To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed<br>> house without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID:<br>> <CAE5fceB6p3ocjzsLDhCTqroOc+hVTJx=vGYORhxRSTRgrEHqZw@mail.gmail.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> I could imagine that a vapor barrier would be beneficial, though I skipped<br>> it on my stick framed 1894 house. I am assuming that we are dealing with<br>> horizontal board siding, and that the folks he is listening to are saying<br>> /only insulate old walls if you also add a vapor barrier/<br>> My curiosity is whether by leaving off the vapor barrier, going with what<br>> you have, one would in fact be risking certain material deterioration?<br>> Wouldn't the insulation material play a role? Dense pack cellulose vs<br>> fiberglass batts?<br>> <br>> On Monday, November 25, 2019, Mike O'Brien <obrien@hevanet.com> wrote:<br>> <br>>> Hi, Reuben?<br>>> <br>>> It would make sense to install vapor retarders and air barriers to keep<br>>> moisture out of the walls, where it will condense during winter. Are the<br>>> local guys saying that can?t be done? Or even if it could they still would<br>>> not insulate the walls?<br>>> <br>>> Usually our old frame buildings have shingles or board siding over<br>>> shiplap, not plywood or OSB, so in our climate a wall can transfer moisture<br>>> to the outside. Are these walls different?<br>>> <br>>> Best, Mike<br>>> Sent from my iPhone<br>>> <br>>> On Nov 25, 2019, at 8:06 PM, Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com> wrote:<br>>> <br>>> ?I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you<br>>> smart greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I<br>>> would like to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been<br>>> cautioned by five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the walls in<br>>> an old house:<br>>> <br>>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After talking<br>>> to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 years or<br>>> more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor barrier, it will<br>>> trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They did a lot of<br>>> insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of structural repairs in<br>>> the 1990's on those houses.<br>>> <br>>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom.<br>>> <br>>> Thanks very much<br>>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.<br>>> bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191125/69e9c71e/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 5<br>> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:08:04 -0800<br>> From: Joe Killian <kaa-ajk@sonic.net><br>> To: greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed<br>> house without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID: <4dcc3689-e5cf-2c45-b037-75b0f7be6328@sonic.net><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>> <br>> Reuben,<br>> <br>> ? Is the insulation type a vapor barrier?? Could make all the difference.<br>> <br>> ? I think one of the best descriptions I've seen for wall construction <br>> is at buildingscience.com<br>> https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-perfect-wall<br>> https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insights-newsletters/bsi-090-joseph-haydn-does-perfect-wall<br>> <br>> ? Just adding insulation without considering the water & air & vapor <br>> issues could easily lead to the damage reported by the house restorers.? <br>> Understanding and addressing the whole picture to arrive at a properly <br>> functioning wall would be the ticket. That could well mean doing more <br>> than just blowing insulation into the walls.<br>> <br>> Joe<br>> <br>> On 11/25/2019 8:03 PM, Reuben Deumling wrote:<br>>> I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you <br>>> smart greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I <br>>> would like to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been <br>>> cautioned by five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the <br>>> walls in an old house:<br>>> <br>>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After <br>>> talking to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 <br>>> years or more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor <br>>> barrier, it will trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They <br>>> did a lot of insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of <br>>> structural repairs in the 1990's on those houses.<br>>> <br>>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom.<br>>> <br>>> Thanks very much<br>>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191125/1a1d3e00/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 6<br>> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:29:28 -0800<br>> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com><br>> To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed<br>> house without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID:<br>> <CAE5fceC7Bv7aZC1XKeffNCWLPWMRDYaE5YpQBMAuBaKrbkBU0Q@mail.gmail.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> I really enjoy everything by Joe Latiburek, and was thinking of him when I<br>> asked the question. Thank you for those links. I will need to read them<br>> more closely than I did just now.<br>> <br>> On Monday, November 25, 2019, Joe Killian <kaa-ajk@sonic.net> wrote:<br>> <br>>> Reuben,<br>>> <br>>> Is the insulation type a vapor barrier? Could make all the difference.<br>>> <br>>> I think one of the best descriptions I've seen for wall construction is<br>>> at buildingscience.com<br>>> https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-<br>>> 001-the-perfect-wall<br>>> https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/building-<br>>> science-insights-newsletters/bsi-090-joseph-haydn-does-perfect-wall<br>>> <br>>> Just adding insulation without considering the water & air & vapor<br>>> issues could easily lead to the damage reported by the house restorers.<br>>> Understanding and addressing the whole picture to arrive at a properly<br>>> functioning wall would be the ticket. That could well mean doing more than<br>>> just blowing insulation into the walls.<br>>> <br>>> Joe<br>>> On 11/25/2019 8:03 PM, Reuben Deumling wrote:<br>>> <br>>> I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you<br>>> smart greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I<br>>> would like to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been<br>>> cautioned by five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the walls in<br>>> an old house:<br>>> <br>>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After talking<br>>> to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 years or<br>>> more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor barrier, it will<br>>> trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They did a lot of<br>>> insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of structural repairs in<br>>> the 1990's on those houses.<br>>> <br>>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom.<br>>> <br>>> Thanks very much<br>>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email addressGreenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web pagehttp://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191125/23b7debe/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 7<br>> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:34:46 -0800<br>> From: "john salmen" <terrain@shaw.ca><br>> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed<br>> house without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID: <005901d5a423$9e13b540$da3b1fc0$@shaw.ca><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> I don?t know about smart but still around. I just got to the point where you build structure and you put all the protection outside of that (including insulation). This works well for a restoration ? may not be aesthetically pleasing but can?t have everything.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> John<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> stationdesign<br>> <br>> 4465 UPHILL RD DUNCAN<br>> <br>> BC V9L6M7 250 246 8541<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> From: Greenbuilding <greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org> On Behalf Of Reuben Deumling<br>> Sent: November 25, 2019 8:04 PM<br>> To: Greenbuilding <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor barrier?<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you smart greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I would like to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been cautioned by five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the walls in an old house:<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After talking to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 years or more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor barrier, it will trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They did a lot of insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of structural repairs in the 1990's on those houses.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom. <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Thanks very much <br>> <br>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191125/760ffc26/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 8<br>> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:40:52 -0800<br>> From: "john salmen" <terrain@shaw.ca><br>> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed<br>> house without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID: <006d01d5a424$77f10600$67d31200$@shaw.ca><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> Another thought ? the insulating in the 70?s ? they punched holes and blew in foam which would have led to a lot of problems at the time including urea formaldehyde toxicity.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> stationdesign<br>> <br>> 4465 UPHILL RD DUNCAN<br>> <br>> BC V9L6M7 250 246 8541<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> From: Greenbuilding <greenbuilding-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org> On Behalf Of Joe Killian<br>> Sent: November 25, 2019 10:08 PM<br>> To: greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house without vapor barrier?<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Reuben,<br>> <br>> Is the insulation type a vapor barrier? Could make all the difference.<br>> <br>> I think one of the best descriptions I've seen for wall construction is at buildingscience.com<br>> https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-perfect-wall<br>> https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insights-newsletters/bsi-090-joseph-haydn-does-perfect-wall<br>> <br>> Just adding insulation without considering the water & air & vapor issues could easily lead to the damage reported by the house restorers. Understanding and addressing the whole picture to arrive at a properly functioning wall would be the ticket. That could well mean doing more than just blowing insulation into the walls.<br>> <br>> Joe<br>> <br>> On 11/25/2019 8:03 PM, Reuben Deumling wrote:<br>> <br>> I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you smart greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I would like to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been cautioned by five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the walls in an old house: <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After talking to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 years or more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor barrier, it will trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They did a lot of insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of structural repairs in the 1990's on those houses.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom. <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Thanks very much <br>> <br>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org <mailto:Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org> <br>> <br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191125/ff38d48d/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 9<br>> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:28:58 +0000<br>> From: John Straube <jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca><br>> To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed<br>> house without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID: <843D3B46-CC1D-407E-9974-E6AAA56CDBBD@uwaterloo.ca><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> too simple to say ?can be? or ?cant be?<br>> It depends. on the wall assembly, materials, interior climate, exterior climate and exposure.<br>> Lots and lots of ?old" homes have been insulated, the vast majority successfully.<br>> <br>> So what is the wall made of? How old? What is the interior RH in the winter? Rain exposure?<br>> In most cases down in cellulose combined with a good air sealing job on the inside works very well with low low risk<br>> <br>>> On Nov 25, 2019, at 23:03, Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com> wrote:<br>>> <br>>> I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you smart greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I would like to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been cautioned by five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the walls in an old house:<br>>> <br>>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After talking to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 years or more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor barrier, it will trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They did a lot of insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of structural repairs in the 1990's on those houses.<br>>> <br>>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom. <br>>> <br>>> Thanks very much <br>>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> Dr John F Straube, P.Eng.<br>> jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca<br>> www.JohnStraube.com<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 10<br>> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 07:57:08 -0800<br>> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com><br>> To: Green Building <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed<br>> house without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID:<br>> <CAE5fceChztBVx9y_8d3NcZG1mABsAApbWTeksJj6h5_fW5T4Gw@mail.gmail.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, John Straube <jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca> wrote:<br>> <br>>> too simple to say ?can be? or ?cant be?<br>>> It depends. on the wall assembly, materials, interior climate, exterior<br>>> climate and exposure.<br>>> Lots and lots of ?old" homes have been insulated, the vast majority<br>>> successfully.<br>>> <br>>> So what is the wall made of? How old? What is the interior RH in the<br>>> winter? Rain exposure?<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> 1912 bungalow in Kampsville, Illinois. Wood 2x4 studs, tightly spaced<br>> horizontal wood siding (clapboard), double hung windows. It has a deep<br>> wraparound porch oriented S and W, but not a lot of trees right near the<br>> house and flat country so I assume some of the walls are plenty exposed.<br>> Interior RH in winter I would have to make an uneducated guess so I won"t.<br>> I don't know the interior wall surfaces but am assuming lath and plaster.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>>> In most cases down in cellulose combined with a good air sealing job on<br>>> the inside works very well with low low risk<br>> <br>> <br>> That was my gut feeling but I have not thought of authoritative ways of<br>> making this case so am turning to you folks. Thanks for all the points so<br>> far.<br>> <br>>> <br>>>> On Nov 25, 2019, at 23:03, Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com> wrote:<br>>>> <br>>>> I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you<br>>> smart greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I<br>>> would like to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been<br>>> cautioned by five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the walls in<br>>> an old house:<br>>>> <br>>>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After<br>>> talking to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 years<br>>> or more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor barrier, it<br>>> will trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They did a lot of<br>>> insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of structural repairs in<br>>> the 1990's on those houses.<br>>>> <br>>>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom.<br>>>> <br>>>> Thanks very much<br>>>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>>>> <br>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>>> <br>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.<br>>> bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> Dr John F Straube, P.Eng.<br>>> jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca<br>>> www.JohnStraube.com<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.<br>>> bioenergylists.org<br>>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191126/991ddd23/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Subject: Digest Footer<br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Greenbuilding mailing list<br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 99, Issue 1<br>> ********************************************<br><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191126/10d0f716/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:01:48 -0500<br>From: Stephen Collette <stephen@yourhealthyhouse.ca><br>To: greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>Subject: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house<br> without vapor barrier?<br>Message-ID: <72cfbadd-39a6-4886-945a-1bb025bd734e@Spark><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>Hello Reuben and all,<br><br>I would echo other?s comments. Yes it can be done, yes it can go wrong, but details details details. When I work with heritage properties (I?m a heritage professional too) I recommend focussing on the air sealing component when insulating stick frame wall systems. I do not recommend spray foam, as the spray will migrate into the drainage plane through the gaps in the planking. I?ve seen that happen. Not pretty. So whether you are opening the walls from the inside or the outside, make sure the air sealing is awesome and the existing large lumber will handle the moisture migrating through via vapour transmission safely.<br><br>Now if it was a masonry wall system, no I wouldn?t recommend insulating as the masonry may fail, especially in big masonry walls like churches and such.<br><br>I would also add that more outsulation the better. If heritage designation isn?t an issue, I took my 100 year old house 1918 and added 6? of Rockwool exterior to the house. I keep the planking on the outside (it was holding in the dry mix concrete originally installed) added more sheathing for flatness, then Delta VentSA peel and stick vapour open weather resistant barrier and then the rock wool. Finished it off with 2x4 strapping to get the full inch thickness for warranty for the wood siding finish. If you want some photos, email ?me off line.<br><br>So yes, it can be done. Do it right. It?s all about the details. That?s what defines green building in my opinion.<br><br>Cheers<br><br>Stephen<br><br>Stephen Collette<br>BBEC, BBNC, LEED AP, CAHP, BSS<br>Your Healthy House - Indoor Environmental Testing & Building Consulting<br>http://www.yourhealthyhouse.ca<br>stephen@yourhealthyhouse.ca<br>705.652.5159<br><br>Listen to my podcast from my website<br>on Apple:?https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/your-healthy-house/id1478928214<br>or wherever you listen to podcasts.<br><br>><br>> Message: 1<br>> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 20:03:38 -0800<br>> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts@gmail.com><br>> To: Greenbuilding <greenbuilding@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Insulating walls in (old) wood framed house<br>> without vapor barrier?<br>> Message-ID:<br>> <CAE5fceAY_YF1=JVSWKhyU+W3M70jGjfGDHnhJfiMR_172WKvww@mail.gmail.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>><br>> I realize this list has gone silent, but in the hope that some of you smart<br>> greenbuilding folks are still out there, receiving this email, I would like<br>> to pick your brains. A correspondent from Illinois has been cautioned by<br>> five(!) "very experienced people' not to insulate the walls in an old house:<br>><br>> In the attic, yes. We are not going to put it in the walls. After talking<br>> to multiple old house restorers who have been in the trade 40 years or<br>> more, they all say one thing, that due to lack of a vapor barrier, it will<br>> trap moisture and rot the framing in the walls. They did a lot of<br>> insulating in the 1970's, and then a great deal of structural repairs in<br>> the 1990's on those houses.<br>><br>> I suggested he try to find a second opinion. Please share your wisdom.<br>><br>> Thanks very much<br>> Reuben Deumling (who joined this list almost twenty(!) years ago.)<br>><br>><br>><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20191126/f7d1205e/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Subject: Digest Footer<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Greenbuilding mailing list<br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>Greenbuilding@bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 99, Issue 2<br>********************************************<br></body></html>