[Stoves] Re ETHOS

rongretlarson at comcast.net rongretlarson at comcast.net
Sun Dec 12 23:05:18 CST 2010




Art: 

1. Nice work. Looks well designed and well constructed. Having too much power as the main concern is probably one you can live with. 

2. I like the use of the "Altoids" can for primary air control (I think) - can you say more? The advantage is a cheap hinge? And is it quite air tight? 

3. The use of a flat piece covering an air trench also looks like it could be cheap and effective. Any negatives this way? 

4. Which approach was used in the test? What sort of turn down ratios have you been able to achieve? Could you have stuffed enough fuel in the fuel chamber to have simmered for 45 minutes, rather than consume considerable char? 

5. The low Aprovecho CO and particulate numbers are very good to see . Have they gotten better? 

6. I think these two sentences in the report: 

"The central idea behind gasification is to separate 
the gasses from the heated biomass and burn them efficiently in a separate “pyrolysis front”. 
Gasifiers are known to leave behind charcoal that can be removed as a “value added” product". 

should be rephrased to read (because I believe it much more common to use the term gasifiers for devices producing as little char as possible). 

"The central idea behind pyrolysis is to separate 
the gasses from the biomass at a downward moving “pyrolysis front” and burn them efficiently in a separate combustion region above the previously converted charcoal. 
Pyrolyzers are known to leave behind charcoal that can be removed as a “value added” Biochar product. 

5. I have added the "stoves" and a Biochar list because I believe your note will be of interest widely. 

6. Some readers will not know that "SEA" is short for Seattle. Can you supply more on that group and how people might support your volunteer efforts in Seattle or where you are now volunteering. 

Again - Congratulations. 

Ron 



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Art Donnelly" <art.donnelly at seachar.org> 
To: psanders at ilstu.edu 
Cc: "Paal wendelbo" <paaw at online.no>, formo-o at online.no, "CHRISTA ROTH" <christa-roth at foodandfuel.info>, dstill at epud.net, kmbryden at iastate.edu, tombreed2010 at gmail.com, rongretlarson at comcast.net, terra-matricula at hotmail.com, hmcLaughlin at alternabiocarbon.com, kathynafie at yahoo.com, ryefry81 at hotmail.com, sameb112 at gmail.com, "tom f skeele" <tom.f.skeele at gmail.com>, apromike at gmail.com, "christoph messinger" <christoph.messinger at gtz.de>, ajoyravenhill at gmail.com, waayres at kc.rr.com 
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 7:40:37 PM 
Subject: Re: Re ETHOS 

Buenas, 
Just a quick note from Costa Rica. Our Estufa Finca (a large TLUD) team is two weeks into preparing for a 10 week pilot project. Working with SALTRA and a program at the Universidad Nacional de Costa Rica, we will be installing 50 , locally produced stoves with migrant coffee bean pickers. 
I want to side with Paal on this very important point. Our stoves can have the best looking numbers in the lab. But if people won't use them it doesn't make much difference does it. The stove design we are using has been jointly developed by myself, my Central American partners (esp. the women who are building them APORTES), but most esp. by listening very carefully to the people who we hope to benefit. Much of the feed back has been in regard to the fuels issue. These people do not have access to chips or pellets, we are not going to get them to make briquttes, etc... so instead we have given them a fuel chamber easy to load with sticks, sugar cane bagasse, etc. and powerful enough to cook for the typically large extended families. This process stared in August 2009, there are currently 20 of our stoves being used in CR and Nicaragua, the feedback has been very positive. The pilot project is simply a continuation of that process. We are going to be using the KPT version 3.0 protocol, with some customization to monitor 30 stoves. All of us on the team are looking forward to adding more TLUD based stoves to our line. But this approach is showing us what will get used in the real world. 
In regard two Paal's second point about Aprovecho. We are a community with a common goal right? The Estufa Finca owes obvious debts to both Paal and Dr. T. In a few months we are going to try to get free plans up online. Why not, if the stove is good, then I want it to spread as widely as possible. Not sure I am saying that in quite the same way as Mr. Chen? 
So: Dean and Aprovecho are in a unique and somewhat uncomfortable position. Given this complexity. I think it would be good for Aprovecho and our sense of community to address this concern very openly. 
BTW: I am scheduled to arrive back in Seattle on Jan 28th. Please include me in the "TLUD Summit" I am looking forward to seeing you all there. 
Whatever we can do to get Paal there needs to be made to happen. 

Ciao, 
pura vida 
Art Donnelly 


On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 10:57 AM, < psanders at ilstu.edu > wrote: 


Dear recipients, 

Paal Wendelbo raises two topics in his message (below): 

1. > There is too much focus on stoves and too little focus on fuel and end users. 

I can agree and also disagree. A balance is needed. I look forward to the proposal that Paal and Otto bring to Washington in January. I suggest that they discuss their proposal with a FEW (not all who receive this message) to get some early feedback in time to make adjustments. AND the topic can be included in the discussion sessions at ETHOS that starts 2 weeks after the Washington DC meeting. 

2. Ethical guidelines: Paal says: 


their [inventors'] products can not be given free for everyone with out knowledge of the inventors. 

I disagree. The specific inventors of TLUDs have presented their developments as "open source" and without seeking protection for intellectual property rights. Note: 

"Acknowledgement" should be given as a courtesy but is not required. 

But "without knowledge of" is not required. (But it is blindness to ignore the early innovators/inventors when less-experienced persons launch into new products because they have the money that the originators did not and do not have.) 

My Interpretation of the background to Paal statement: (trying to understand, but if I am incorrect, please forgive me.) Dean at Aprovecho has reported some emissions numbers, and that sparked comments about the need to tell the audience about the stove used. Dean did not describe his stove. 

On the other hand, I think that Paal believes that the stove Dean used is the Peko Pe, perhaps the unit that Paal left at Aprovecho after Stove Camp 2009. However, I think that Dean has his own TLUD. 

Result: Confusion. Misunderstandings. Incomplete communications. 

Note to ETHOS organizers: How about a ticket and hotel assistance for Paal Wendelbo to attend ETHOS 2011? I understand that Tom Reed is planning to attend, and that would be the start for making a "TLUD Summit." (provided the schedule gives time for discussions instead of just academic presentations, as per my earlier comments.) 

Paul 

Quoting Paal wendelbo < paaw at online.no >: 


<snipped> 

There is too much focus on stoves and too little focus on fuel and end users. 

Fuel, stoves and the end user has to be seen as one unit, which can not be separated, and together they are a part of a living society. Our approach to the Global Alliance is of high importance, since Mrs Glinton did not with a single word .in her speech. mentioned the fuel for the clean burning stoves That's the most important question .regarding clean burning stoves. Stoves are a one time investment; fuel the running cost 3 times every day. 

At the conference at .Washington the 11/01 Otto and I will present a proposal for the approach to the Global Alliance, which also should be discussed at the ETHOS . 



Another thing which has to be discussed is the ethical guidelines for Aprovecho Research Centre regarding utilization of tested products at the Centre. The inventors have spent quite a lot of time and money on their products and e.g. their products can not be given free for everyone with out knowledge of the inventors 

With regards Paal W paaw at online.no 






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