[Stoves] Deaths from indoor air pollution from solid fuel
B.C. Romero Orellana
bcromero at gmail.com
Mon Nov 8 08:58:25 CST 2010
As you notice they mention the work done here in Guatemala by Dr. Kirk Smith
from Berkeley and Dr. Nigel Bruce who is now working for the W.H.O. in
Geniva in this aspect. Please Dr. Smith mention to me that his publications
are available in his website.
Be fine and have a nice day
Carolina Romero
Field Project Manager
2010/11/7 Joyce Lockard <rj.lockard at frontier.com>
> Here is the source of the statement that "Indoor air pollution from solid
> fuel use is responsible for 1.6 million deaths---":
> http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs292/en/index.html
> Joyce Lockard
> rj.lockard at verizon.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
> stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 10:27 AM
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 3, Issue 6
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication on
> stoves all over the world (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
> 2. Re: Oversized stoves / thermal insulation (ajheggie at gmail.com)
> 3. Re: Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication on
> stoves all over the world (Tom Miles)
> 4. Re: Oversized stoves / thermal insulation
> (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 5. Re: Oversized stoves / thermal insulation
> (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 6. Re: Chimneys (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 7. Re: interesting 90 pages gtz publication on stoves all over
> the world.... (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 8. Re: Chimneys (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 9. Re: Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication on
> stoves all over the world (Otto Formo)
> 10. Re: Oversized stoves / thermal insulation (ajheggie at gmail.com)
> 11. Re: FW: Announcement of the IIEA-Project Gaia Appropriate
> Scale Alcohol Fuel Production Seminar -- Global Solution for
> Cooking, etc. (Richard Stanley)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 20:49:49 +0000 (UTC)
> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> To: scda2 at t-online.de, Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz
> publication on stoves all over the world
> Message-ID:
>
> <
> 1978756922.595788.1289076589612.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.co
> mcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Chris (cc list and Tom):
>
> 1. Thanks for forwarding this link (below), which is a new one for me.
> There
> are 2 earlier portions, that can be downloaded as well by changing your "3"
> below to "1" and "2" There are many more than 90 pages. Must be over 5 MB
> in
> total.
>
> 2. This is one of the top books on stoves I have ever seen. Amazingly
> complete for contents around the world. Many excellent citations - and
> wonderful photos.
>
> 3. This is to ask Tom Miles if he had previously seen this - and if it is
> somewhere in his huge list of resources. I just looked
> (example: http://www.bioenergylists.org/search/node/1995)
>
> and couldn't find it. I am wondering how/why it never made it into the
> "stoves" list discussions. (Or maybe it did - it should have.) It proves
> (??) we are not a sufficiently all-inclusive community.
>
> 4. As good as I find it (for 1995), I don't think there is anything in it
> of
> value today to almost anyone on this list. The "stoves" list started within
> a year after this publication - mainly at first talking of charcoal-making
> stoves. I cannot find (but I didn't look real closely - hope I am wrong)
> anything on charcoal-making (top-lit TLUD - or even BLDD), much less the
> material on Tom's "stoves" list since 2007 (2008?) of TLOD stoves.
>
> 5. So can anyone point me to anything in this (wonderful historical)
> document that will be of use in working today on improved stoves? (The need
> is certainly shown in this book.)
>
>
> Part B. Chris' website:
>
> 1. I had not been for some time to your website. You have done some very
> nice work. Congratulations.
>
> 2. I have earlier seen "Biocoal" used in Germany in preference to
> "Biochar".
> Can you give a rationale for the German preference for "coal" over "char"
> when coupled with "Bio"?
>
> Ron
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Adam" <scda2 at ymail.com>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 6, 2010 11:24:23 AM
> Subject: [Stoves] Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication on
> stoves all over the world
>
> Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication on stoves all over
> the world.... ("Stoves Images 1995"):
>
> http://www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/en-stove-images3-1995.pdf
>
> My MFBO (Multi Fuel Bread Oven) is also mentioned on page 39/166:
> http://biocoal.org/9.html
>
> cheers
> Chris ADAM
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------------
> adam + partner
> Appropriate Technologist + Industrial Designer
>
> Box 50108, Addis Abeba,
> E T H I O P I A
>
> Hy: + 251- (0) 910 88 36 24
> (Hy: +49-(0)175-528 96 24, German Telekom does not work in Ethiopia)
>
> www.biocoal.org
> scda2 at ymail.com
>
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 23:46:03 +0000
> From: ajheggie at gmail.com
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Oversized stoves / thermal insulation
> Message-ID: <201011062346.04050.ajheggie at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Wednesday 03 November 2010 10:41:18 Boll, Martin Dr. wrote:
> > Dear Crispin and Andrew,
> >
> >
> >
> > The problem of "oversized" stoves is rising in Germany. The new houses
> > are built regarding low-energy standards, made by the government to
> > bring down CO2 emission.( German key-words for different grades of
> > energy-saving houses: Niedrigenergiehaus, Passivhaus, Nullenergiehaus).
>
> I think we have much the same in UK
>
> Low-energy building which tends to be fairly conventional but using
> materials with low embedded energy and good insulation. Often nowadays
> this means one is required to have fairly small windows or a novel means
> of heating as once you've got the walls and roof down to .3W/m2.degC
> there's not much more you can do and even triple glazed windows
> are .6W/m2/deg C. I'm all in favour of external insulated shutters.
>
> Passivehaus must be one that is designed to collect solar heat or stored
> summer heat.
>
> And zero energy development is more of a wish. I have worked with people
> aspiring (and claiming) to build zero energy developments but they missed
> their target in my opinion. I still maintain a pellet boiler in a well
> insulated actively solar heated house and not only did they get their
> sums wrong they don't maintain the solar thermal array such that the
> boiler wore itself out in 5 years.
>
>
> > Their main problems/difficulties/not-low-tech-solutions are
> > condensing-water and the need of forced change of air with its
> > heat-recuperation.
>
> Yest once you have high insulation then the heat carried away from the
> warm house in the air becomes the biggest loss. It needs careful control
> to prevent the atmosphere becoming stuffy. This is often done with whole
> house ventilation systems whereby the house is well sealed and the fans
> maintain the correct air changes to prevent stuffiness. A heat exchanger
> recuperates heat from outgoing air and warms the incoming cold air.
>
> Once you seal a room and control air changes any cold bridges can lead to
> condensation, which is why it is necessary to have a vapour barrier
> between the room and the insulation, otherwise water vapour from cooking
> and breathing migrates through the insulation and condenses on to a cold
> surface, possibly leading to mould and rot. Exterior walls need to
> breathe also to allow atmospheric moisture to dissipate as the air
> temperature changes overnight.
> >
> >
> >
> > In that houses, the old "Kachelofen" with its high mass and slow
> > radiation of heat does not fit, even it is worse, because of its good
> > heat-radiation, which helps better in bad insulated old houses to keep
> > down
> > heating-energy-needs.
>
> I've worked on tiled pellet stoves where the tiles act as storage heaters,
> those in North America will be familiar with the similar idea of masonry
> stoves, a quick hot efficient batch burn at full blast with the thermal
> mass of the chimney breast being designed to absorb heat just fast enough
> to ensure heat transfer but not so fast as to quench the flames and
> allowing the flue temperature to be just enough above boiling to prevent
> condensation and not so hot as to cause unnecessary flue heat loss. Our
> old fashioned bread ovens fired by faggots were similar.
> >
> >
> >
> > Many people like to have a stove apart from their central-heating. But
> > the current commercial stoves, which are used in normal
> > thermal-insulated houses have a normal working output ( Nennleistung )
> > of at least 4kw.
>
> Yes I can understand this, I have had the smallest Jotul stove for over 30
> years and without a means of moving heat around this old, poorly
> insulated house it gets uncomfortably hot near it and cold elsewhere.
>
> > Naturally they can be choked, mostly with less
> > efficiency and less cleanliness.
>
> Turn down ratio is an issue with stoves, also as you get smaller the
> surface area to volume ratio changes and the heat exchange surface is
> often the cast iron walls, so the smaller stove is actually difficult to
> keep the fire hot enough for a clean burn.
>
> I'm not the fan of flue dampers that Crispin is, I prefer to maintain the
> maximum depression in the secondary combustion area but this does require
> good sealing to prevent excess air ingress. Maximum depression means the
> combustion air can have a good velocity for turbulence and mixing with
> the offgas from the primary combustion.
>
>
> > The only commercial solutions for
> > those new houses seem to be pellet-stoves.
>
> Not necessarily so, I believe Nat at worldstove has demonstrated one of
> his small burners run as a batch burn inside the body of a pellet stove
> with good results.
>
> I think adding an extra cast iron liner to a simple stove will also
> achieve results the other thing is to reduce the log cross section and of
> course use dry logs.
> >
> > I did not check how low they can be run, because pellets are not my
> > favour, but I saw a pellet stove in working, burning only about some 5
> > or 10 pellets at once.
>
> Yes this is how pellet stoves work, in fact the smaller diameter the
> pellets the easier it is to optimise heat output because their is less
> mass per pellet and similar surface area for burning. The modern ones
> couple the fan speed to the feed auger and have secondary air fine tuned
> by a wideband lambda sensor in the flue. This means the biggest losses
> from earlier designs, which was often mandated excess air, are avoided.
>
> My pellet stove probably has a 4 to 1 turn down but I have no means of
> testing how this affect the CO2:CO ratio, which should be a measure of
> good combustion.
>
> > -By the way, Crispin, there are projects in Austria building
> > well-insulated gers as well ( ger in German mostly called: Jurte ).
> >
> Yurt in UK and they have become fashionable at fairs, exhibitions and
> wedding receptions.
>
> AJH
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 17:04:16 -0700
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> To: <rongretlarson at comcast.net>, <scda2 at t-online.de>, "'Discussion of
> biomass cooking stoves'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz
> publication on stoves all over the world
> Message-ID: <00c601cb7e0f$51eae970$f5c0bc50$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Ron,
>
>
>
> It is a good find. I remember studying this document when we were trying to
> develop an online database of stoves and stove designs.
>
>
>
> GTZ has many interesting and useful documents. I don't think we ever put it
> on the Stoves site. I remember that they were constantly changing their
> websites so simply linking to documents didn't work very well.
>
>
>
> The list started in about 1996. Alex English started the stoves website in
> about 1997. We took it over a few years later. We still have your early
> (1996) discussions about making clay or tincanium charcoal making stoves
> with Alex English, Elsen Karstad and Richard Boyt. (Tagging the stories
> with the right links so they can be found is always a challenge.)
>
>
>
> A good candidate is from Alex english:
>
> The Curvacious Charcoal Making Wood Gas Burning Stove (AE's latest test,
> Sept 11/97)
>
>
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/content/curvacious-charcoal-making-wood-gas-bu
> rning-stove
>
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/taxonomy/term/769
>
>
>
> Searching by Author works:
>
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/contributors
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net [mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 1:50 PM
> To: scda2 at t-online.de; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Cc: Tom Miles
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication on
> stoves all over the world
>
>
>
> Chris (cc list and Tom):
>
> 1. Thanks for forwarding this link (below), which is a new one for me.
> There are 2 earlier portions, that can be downloaded as well by changing
> your "3" below to "1" and "2" There are many more than 90 pages. Must be
> over 5 MB in total.
>
> 2. This is one of the top books on stoves I have ever seen. Amazingly
> complete for contents around the world. Many excellent citations - and
> wonderful photos.
>
> 3. This is to ask Tom Miles if he had previously seen this - and if it
> is somewhere in his huge list of resources. I just looked
> (example: http://www.bioenergylists.org/search/node/1995)
>
> and couldn't find it. I am wondering how/why it never made it into the
> "stoves" list discussions. (Or maybe it did - it should have.) It
> proves
> (??) we are not a sufficiently all-inclusive community.
>
> 4. As good as I find it (for 1995), I don't think there is anything in
> it of value today to almost anyone on this list. The "stoves" list started
> within a year after this publication - mainly at first talking of
> charcoal-making stoves. I cannot find (but I didn't look real closely -
> hope I am wrong) anything on charcoal-making (top-lit TLUD - or even BLDD),
> much less the material on Tom's "stoves" list since 2007 (2008?) of TLOD
> stoves.
>
> 5. So can anyone point me to anything in this (wonderful historical)
> document that will be of use in working today on improved stoves? (The
> need is certainly shown in this book.)
>
>
> Part B. Chris' website:
>
> 1. I had not been for some time to your website. You have done some
> very nice work. Congratulations.
>
> 2. I have earlier seen "Biocoal" used in Germany in preference to
> "Biochar". Can you give a rationale for the German preference for "coal"
> over "char" when coupled with "Bio"?
>
> Ron
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Adam" <scda2 at ymail.com>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 6, 2010 11:24:23 AM
> Subject: [Stoves] Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication on
> stoves all over the world
>
> Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication on stoves all over
> the world.... ("Stoves Images 1995"):
>
> http://www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/en-stove-images3-1995.pdf
>
> My MFBO (Multi Fuel Bread Oven) is also mentioned on page 39/166:
> http://biocoal.org/9.html
>
> cheers
> Chris ADAM
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> adam + partner
> Appropriate Technologist + Industrial Designer
>
> Box 50108, Addis Abeba,
> E T H I O P I A
>
> Hy: + 251- (0) 910 88 36 24
> (Hy: +49-(0)175-528 96 24, German Telekom does not work in Ethiopia)
>
> www.biocoal.org
> scda2 at ymail.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> Stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 23:25:55 -0400
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Oversized stoves / thermal insulation
> Message-ID: <000a01cb7e2b$7e91f7e0$7bb5e7a0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Andrew and All
>
> >> I did not check how low they can be run, because pellets are not my
> >> favour, but I saw a pellet stove in working, burning only about some 5
> >> or 10 pellets at once.
>
> >Yes this is how pellet stoves work,
>
> We have to address this 'smaller stove' issues pretty promptly. There is a
> real need for long term provision of small amounts of heat continuously.
> Water heating is a pretty good example as well.
>
> The Yurt (which is a Russian name for a Ger) needs about 4 kW continuously
> in January in the middle of Asia. If it is well insulated by a blanket it
> only needs 4 kW.
>
> Two things are making this problem harder: 1) people are not working on 2
> kW
> stoves and 2) the Europeans are driving everyone towards 'low smoke fuels'
> by which they mean semi-coked briquettes. To make a semi-coked briquette
> costs money so the fuel is about three times the price of coal. On top of
> that, it has a much higher heat value per kg because so much if it has been
> removed (the high hydrogen and oxygen portion). The result is that we would
> be faced building a tiny stove with a fuel consumption of under 450 grams
> of
> coke per hour. Frankly, that is a very difficult problem. 450 g is about
> 350 cc. I would like to see an example of a clean burning, high temperature
> stove that consumes 350 cc of fuel an hour. Wow. That would be amazing.
>
> The alternative is to build heat storage units like brick walls (which
> don't
> hold very much heat in spite of their popularity) or expensive things like
> water. Almost everything comfortable involving heat storage needs
> electricity to manage properly.
>
> It seems that to burn semi-coke or coal on that tiny a scale will need
> stove
> innovation, materials development and fuel processing. The very small
> pellet
> stoves are probably a good place to start: very small amounts of fuel
> loaded
> into a tiny burning chamber with an auger feed system.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 01:53:00 -0500
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Oversized stoves / thermal insulation
> Message-ID: <001001cb7e48$6d9d1fb0$48d75f10$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Andrew
>
> Good post. Lots in it.
>
> > I'm not the fan of flue dampers that Crispin is, I prefer to maintain the
> maximum depression in the secondary combustion area but this does require
> good sealing to prevent excess air ingress. Maximum depression means the
> combustion air can have a good velocity for turbulence and mixing with the
> offgas from the primary combustion.<
>
> I don't want to give the impression I favour dampers. I favour chimneys
> which are correctly sized. Dampers have issues.
>
> Once you have the right chimney, then you still have the issue of getting
> the fluid dynamics you speak of above, exactly as you describe it.
> Incidentally I am approaching the point of declaring that the length of the
> space for the burn to take place has a virtually fixed relationship with
> the
> fuel chemistry.
>
> I have made very short paraffin flames from a fairly heavy oil (compared
> with Butane of Methane) but still, getting a really clean burn with solid
> fuels or solid fuels with heavy oil seems to have a clear relationship with
> length of the flamed region.
>
> Any thoughts on this? Could it make sense?
>
> Thanks
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 01:53:00 -0500
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys
> Message-ID: <001601cb7e48$800fdf20$802f9d60$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Krishna
>
>
>
> Is it possible in Nepal to build stoves that don?t make so much smoke in
> the
> first place? If they have a chimney it is actually pretty easy to greatly
> reduce sticky PM being left over and ascending the chimney.
>
>
>
> Is it because they are burning pine? That can be very smoky in a short
> burner.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 01:53:00 -0500
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: <scda2 at t-online.de>, "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting 90 pages gtz publication on stoves
> all over the world....
> Message-ID: <001101cb7e48$7f50add0$7df20970$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Friends
>
>
>
> I had a look at the document and I see there is the Zambian mbaula on p.132
> (bottom right). I have nominated it as probably the worst charcoal stove of
> all time but I also see there for the first time the Mauritanian 'fourneau
> malgache' (Malagasy stove).
>
>
>
> That certainly has to be a competitor for the bottom ranking stove of all
> time. Holy crow.
>
>
>
> To qualify for this coveted position you have to make sure that no space
> (open gap) exists between the charcoal and pot (to quench all flames that
> might burn some of the CO) and also have a huge air supply to make sure
> lots
> of cold air gets into the burning charcoal to create as much CO as
> possible.
>
>
>
> To finish it off, there should be no skirt at all so any passing wind can
> blow the heat away from the pot.
>
>
>
> A western competitor in this category is the Haitian MIRAK with the pot
> rest
> removed (often sold that way). It is slightly improved with the rest in
> palce, and terrible without it (the pot sitting right on the charcoal
> choking everything).
>
>
>
> My goodness we have come a long way since 1995.
>
>
>
> Good to see the MEECHAI which is an early Mayon Turbo stove.
>
>
>
> The gravity stove (p.147) is the inspiration for the Free State Paraffin
> Stove (FSP) the latter having solved a number of problems inherent in the
> former. The plans for that are available from yours truly.
>
>
>
> The stoves in Zimbabwe I was trying to describe with the build-in cupboards
> are on page 163 [36/90]
>
>
>
> It is interesting to see how few of these designs are held today to be
> improved. They JIKO is an enduring example in various forms (clay-lined
> truncated, inverted cone with an air choking door). That says a lot for the
> efforts over the past 10 years, especially from GTZ which is a major
> sponsor
> of the R&D that has taken place since then. In particular, even a little
> test equipment can bring big changes in performance, beyond what can be
> seen
> with the naked eye.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
> (Thanks Chis)
>
>
> http://www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/en-stove-images3-1995.pdf
>
> My MFBO (Multi Fuel Bread Oven) is also mentioned on page 39/166:
> http://biocoal.org/9.html
>
> cheers
> Chris ADAM
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 01:53:00 -0500
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys
> Message-ID: <001b01cb7e48$80a2f760$81e8e620$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Joyce
>
>
>
> A chimney offers the possibility (because of air control) to drastically
> reduce the creation of CO in the first place. CO is a product of incomplete
> combustion so the first question is to ask, 'can we prevent it being
> created
> in the first place?' instead of 'how do we get it out of the house?]
>
>
>
> Ideally a stove with something as expensive as a chimney ($5) has good
> combustion as a result!
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Behalf Of Nancy Sanford Hughes
>
>
>
>
>
> If the chimney is internal, such as in the Ecocina, it's extremely
> efficient.
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2010, at 7:53 AM, Joyce Lockard wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Why is no one talking about chimneys that get rid of the CO safely? And
> doesn't the addition of a chimney change the >dynamics of any stove?
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 09:10:58 +0100 (MET)
> From: Otto Formo <formo-o at online.no>
> To: Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com>, <rongretlarson at comcast.net>,
> <scda2 at t-online.de>, "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz
> publication on stoves all over the world
> Message-ID:
> <29627625.21806.1289117438005.JavaMail.adm-moff at moffice10.nsc.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear all,
> yes it is "nice" to dwell about the past for a while, but its high time to
> move forward.
> Surprisingly nothing about the "Grassburner" Peko in Uganda in those
> documents from 1996!?
>
> Just a reminder about the "situation" in Uganda at that time and keep in
> mind that GTZ was very much involved in the "stove issues" at the refugee
> camps.
> It is a "wonder" how they could "miss" to know about the "Grassburner" TLUD
> ND system.
>
> Here are some links to You Tube:
> The TLUD ND Peko Pe, introduced in Kampala and Adjumani refugee camp in
> Uganda from 1995-96, utillizing any type of dry biomass from agri- and
> forest residue and waste.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amaUDK6VyRg
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi3Xx7NtTGw&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsfuVGBi4fc&feature=related
>
> Let us move forward and do the "best" for the people in need.
>
> Have a nice sunday!
>
> Kindly
> Otto
>
> > From: Tom Miles [tmiles at trmiles.com]
> > Sent: 2010-11-07 01:04:16 MET
> > To: rongretlarson at comcast.net, scda2 at t-online.de, 'Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves' [stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication
> on stoves all over the world
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> >
> >
> > It is a good find. I remember studying this document when we were trying
> to develop an online database of stoves and stove designs.
> >
> >
> >
> > GTZ has many interesting and useful documents. I don't think we ever put
> it on the Stoves site. I remember that they were constantly changing their
> websites so simply linking to documents didn't work very well.
> >
> >
> >
> > The list started in about 1996. Alex English started the stoves website
> in
> about 1997. We took it over a few years later. We still have your early
> (1996) discussions about making clay or tincanium charcoal making stoves
> with Alex English, Elsen Karstad and Richard Boyt. (Tagging the stories
> with the right links so they can be found is always a challenge.)
> >
> >
> >
> > A good candidate is from Alex english:
> >
> > The Curvacious Charcoal Making Wood Gas Burning Stove (AE's latest test,
> Sept 11/97)
> >
> >
>
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/content/curvacious-charcoal-making-wood-gas-bu
> rning-stove
> >
> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/taxonomy/term/769
> >
> >
> >
> > Searching by Author works:
> >
> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/contributors
> >
> >
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net [mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 1:50 PM
> > To: scda2 at t-online.de; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > Cc: Tom Miles
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication
> on stoves all over the world
> >
> >
> >
> > Chris (cc list and Tom):
> >
> > 1. Thanks for forwarding this link (below), which is a new one for
> me.
> There are 2 earlier portions, that can be downloaded as well by changing
> your "3" below to "1" and "2" There are many more than 90 pages. Must be
> over 5 MB in total.
> >
> > 2. This is one of the top books on stoves I have ever seen.
> Amazingly complete for contents around the world. Many excellent citations
> -
> and wonderful photos.
> >
> > 3. This is to ask Tom Miles if he had previously seen this - and if
> it is somewhere in his huge list of resources. I just looked
> > (example: http://www.bioenergylists.org/search/node/1995)
> >
> > and couldn't find it. I am wondering how/why it never made it into the
> "stoves" list discussions. (Or maybe it did - it should have.) It
> proves
> (??) we are not a sufficiently all-inclusive community.
> >
> > 4. As good as I find it (for 1995), I don't think there is anything
> in it of value today to almost anyone on this list. The "stoves" list
> started within a year after this publication - mainly at first talking of
> charcoal-making stoves. I cannot find (but I didn't look real closely -
> hope I am wrong) anything on charcoal-making (top-lit TLUD - or even BLDD),
> much less the material on Tom's "stoves" list since 2007 (2008?) of TLOD
> stoves.
> >
> > 5. So can anyone point me to anything in this (wonderful historical)
> document that will be of use in working today on improved stoves? (The
> need is certainly shown in this book.)
> >
> >
> > Part B. Chris' website:
> >
> > 1. I had not been for some time to your website. You have done some
> very nice work. Congratulations.
> >
> > 2. I have earlier seen "Biocoal" used in Germany in preference to
> "Biochar". Can you give a rationale for the German preference for "coal"
> over "char" when coupled with "Bio"?
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Adam" <scda2 at ymail.com>
> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 6, 2010 11:24:23 AM
> > Subject: [Stoves] Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication on
> stoves all over the world
> >
> > Discovered an interesting 90 pages gtz publication on stoves all over
> > the world.... ("Stoves Images 1995"):
> >
> > http://www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/en-stove-images3-1995.pdf
> >
> > My MFBO (Multi Fuel Bread Oven) is also mentioned on page 39/166:
> > http://biocoal.org/9.html
> >
> > cheers
> > Chris ADAM
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------------
> > adam + partner
> > Appropriate Technologist + Industrial Designer
> >
> > Box 50108, Addis Abeba,
> > E T H I O P I A
> >
> > Hy: + 251- (0) 910 88 36 24
> > (Hy: +49-(0)175-528 96 24, German Telekom does not work in Ethiopia)
> >
> > www.biocoal.org
> > scda2 at ymail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > Stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 23:36:38 +0000
> From: ajheggie at gmail.com
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Oversized stoves / thermal insulation
> Message-ID: <201011062336.38746.ajheggie at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Wednesday 03 November 2010 10:41:18 Boll, Martin Dr. wrote:
> > Dear Crispin and Andrew,
> >
> >
> >
> > The problem of "oversized" stoves is rising in Germany. The new houses
> > are built regarding low-energy standards, made by the government to
> > bring down CO2 emission.( German key-words for different grades of
> > energy-saving houses: Niedrigenergiehaus, Passivhaus, Nullenergiehaus).
>
> I think we have much the same in UK
>
> Low-energy building which tends to be fairly conventional but using
> materials with low embedded energy and good insulation. Often nowadays
> this means one is required to have fairly small windows or a novel means
> of heating as once you've got the walls and roof down to .3W/m2.degC
> there's not much more you can do and even triple glazed windows
> are .6W/m2/deg C. I'm all in favour of external insulated shutters.
>
> Passivehaus must be one that is designed to collect solar heat or stored
> summer heat.
>
> And zero energy development is more of a wish. I have worked with people
> aspiring (and claiming) to build zero energy developments but they missed
> their target in my opinion. I still maintain a pellet boiler in a well
> insulated actively solar heated house and not only did they get their
> sums wrong they don't maintain the solar thermal array such that the
> boiler wore itself out in 5 years.
>
>
> > Their main problems/difficulties/not-low-tech-solutions are
> > condensing-water and the need of forced change of air with its
> > heat-recuperation.
>
> Yest once you have high insulation then the heat carried away from the
> warm house in the air becomes the biggest loss. It needs careful control
> to prevent the atmosphere becoming stuffy. This is often done with whole
> house ventilation systems whereby the house is well sealed and the fans
> maintain the correct air changes to prevent stuffiness. A heat exchanger
> recuperates heat from outgoing air and warms the incoming cold air.
>
> Once you seal a room and control air changes any cold bridges can lead to
> condensation, which is why it is necessary to have a vapour barrier
> between the room and the insulation, otherwise water vapour from cooking
> and breathing migrates through the insulation and condenses on to a cold
> surface, possibly leading to mould and rot. Exterior walls need to
> breathe also to allow atmospheric moisture to dissipate as the air
> temperature changes overnight.
> >
> >
> >
> > In that houses, the old "Kachelofen" with its high mass and slow
> > radiation of heat does not fit, even it is worse, because of its good
> > heat-radiation, which helps better in bad insulated old houses to keep
> > down
> > heating-energy-needs.
>
> I've worked on tiled pellet stoves where the tiles act as storage heaters,
> those in North America will be familiar with the similar idea of masonry
> stoves, a quick hot efficient batch burn at full blast with the thermal
> mass of the chimney breast being designed to absorb heat just fast enough
> to ensure heat transfer but not so fast as to quench the flames and
> allowing the flue temperature to be just enough above boiling to prevent
> condensation and not so hot as to cause unnecessary flue heat loss. Our
> old fashioned bread ovens fired by faggots were similar.
> >
> >
> >
> > Many people like to have a stove apart from their central-heating. But
> > the current commercial stoves, which are used in normal
> > thermal-insulated houses have a normal working output ( Nennleistung )
> > of at least 4kw.
>
> Yes I can understand this, I have had the smallest Jotul stove for over 30
> years and without a means of moving heat around this old, poorly
> insulated house it gets uncomfortably hot near it and cold elsewhere.
>
> > Naturally they can be choked, mostly with less
> > efficiency and less cleanliness.
>
> Turn down ratio is an issue with stoves, also as you get smaller the
> surface area to volume ratio changes and the heat exchange surface is
> often the cast iron walls, so the smaller stove is actually difficult to
> keep the fire hot enough for a clean burn.
>
> I'm not the fan of flue dampers that Crispin is, I prefer to maintain the
> maximum depression in the secondary combustion area but this does require
> good sealing to prevent excess air ingress. Maximum depression means the
> combustion air can have a good velocity for turbulence and mixing with
> the offgas from the primary combustion.
>
>
> > The only commercial solutions for
> > those new houses seem to be pellet-stoves.
>
> Not necessarily so, I believe Nat at worldstove has demonstrated one of
> his small burners run as a batch burn inside the body of a pellet stove
> with good results.
>
> I think adding an extra cast iron liner to a simple stove will also
> achieve results the other thing is to reduce the log cross section and of
> course use dry logs.
> >
> > I did not check how low they can be run, because pellets are not my
> > favour, but I saw a pellet stove in working, burning only about some 5
> > or 10 pellets at once.
>
> Yes this is how pellet stoves work, in fact the smaller diameter the
> pellets the easier it is to optimise heat output because their is less
> mass per pellet and similar surface area for burning. The modern ones
> couple the fan speed to the feed auger and have secondary air fine tuned
> by a wideband lambda sensor in the flue. This means the biggest losses
> from earlier designs, which was often mandated excess air, are avoided.
>
> My pellet stove probably has a 4 to 1 turn down but I have no means of
> testing how this affect the CO2:CO ratio, which should be a measure of
> good combustion.
>
> > -By the way, Crispin, there are projects in Austria building
> > well-insulated gers as well ( ger in German mostly called: Jurte ).
> >
> Yurt in UK and they have become fashionable at fairs, exhibitions and
> wedding receptions.
>
> AJH
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 21:25:21 +0300
> From: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
> To: Lloyd Helferty <lhelferty at sympatico.ca>, Stoves and biofuels
> network <Stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] FW: Announcement of the IIEA-Project Gaia
> Appropriate Scale Alcohol Fuel Production Seminar -- Global
> Solution
> for Cooking, etc.
> Message-ID: <80FBABBE-C895-45C9-8734-BEEC047F7561 at legacyfound.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Lloyd,
>
> Thanks for considering us but we are not really into a mass production
> activity. Rather we are focussing on production by the masses in the form
> of
> hundreds of small entrepreneur / producer teams catering to their own local
> markets.
>
> It could be that you are seeing this as a way to go for larger small
> business teams catering to the more urban areas too but I'm not convinced
> of
> the real demand for it, given the plethora of cheap natural gas and
> petroleum there, unless the government has decided to put its foot down ...
>
> But here are some numbers to banter around for comparisons sake:
> The 12 to 15 (150 gram, hollow core, wet process biomass briquettes made by
> any of the 20 odd hand presses out in circulation now, --even with a good 5
> to 8 kw hammer mill to speed up material preparation--- will cost the
> family of say five persons, about 15% of the briquette producer's daily
> wage.
>
> Just out of curiosity, how does that compute in comparison to local solid
> fuel costs , if indeed such is the predominant fuel type in use ?
>
> Richard Stanley
>
> On Nov 7, 2010, at 12:49 AM, Lloyd Helferty wrote:
>
> > Harry,
> >
> > Might I recommend someone who is a briquetting expert? (although not a
> biochar expert)
> > (It's not easy to find both, although I'm quite open to learning to
> become
> an expert in both... -- right now I know a lot more from the biochar side
> than from the briquetting side, but I do wish to support both.)
> >
> > Roger Samson from REAP Canada knows all about briquetting and cubing,
> including (probably) all the companies.
> > He is also a "stove" expert.
> > http://www.reap-canada.com/
> >
> > Another option might be to contact Richard Stanley, the Director of the
> "Legacy Foundation" in Ashland, OR
> > www.legacyfound.org
> > They have developed a micro-enterprise-based briquetting technology which
> converts things like non-productive agricultural residues into "economic
> and
> environmentally sound heating and cooking fuel for families and communities
> in developing countries"... and can even be used in the USA -- for things
> like yard wastes and junk mail.
> >
> > P.S. I have a possible alternate project for you, if you are interested.
> I
> know someone in Mexico who would really like to start a "drylands
> feedstock"
> ethanol industry in Mexico using Agave** as the feedstock.
> > We would like to announce that "a major project will be going ahead"
> ...
> He wants to make the announcement sometime before COP16 in Cancun.
> > He claims he can produce >500 tonnes of biomass per hectare (after year
> 3), equivalent to 50+ tonnes of dry-bone biomass with 75% cellulose
> content.
> Each hectare could produce 25+ tonnes of biochar AFTER yielding up to
> 10,000 gallons of ethanol per hectare per year (5,000 gallons of distilled
> ethanol and 5,000 gallons of cellulosic ethanol).
> >
> > ** One hectare of agave produces 3X more sugars than sugarcane, 4X more
> cellulose than the fastest growing eucalyptus and 5X more biomass than the
> GMO poplar tree designed in the USA for cellulosic biofuels production.
> >
> > Note: Every year ~3 million tonnes of agave leaves are left in the field
> to rot (the tequila industry in Mexico doesn't use the leaves for tequila
> production, although they have a higher sugar content than sugarcane).
> Around 10% of the total plant weight is formed of sugars. (~20-30% of agave
> stem's weight is sugars (fructans), which is why they use it to make
> Tequila
> and many other liquors. Of course, there is no reason why it can not also
> be
> used to produce liquid biofuels - and the leftover "bagasse" could be used
> to make Biochar.)
> >
> > Note some advantages of Agave:
> > ? Thrives on dry land/ "marginal land". Most efficient use of soil,
> water* and light.
> > * thrives with only 190mm of rain per year
> > ? Massive production. Year-around harvesting.
> > ? Very high yields with very low or no inputs
> > ? Very high quality biomass and sugars
> > ? Very low cost of production. Not a commodity, so prices are not
> volatile
> > ? Very versatile: biofuels, bioproducts, chemicals
> > ? World-wide geographical distribution***
> >
> > *** By running a pilot project in Mexico and learning how this industry
> might work, in time what it learned in Mexico could probably eventually be
> translated to the rest of the "Drylands" around the world.
> > Note also that Drylands cover about 40% of the Earth's surface today (>60
> million square Km is "dryland", with >25 million square Km of "semiarid"
> land; equivalent to ~20% of US territory and >75% of Mexico) and this will
> likely expand as the Global Climate changes (whether this change is natural
> or not). These drylands already support over 2 billion people.
> >
> > Lloyd Helferty, Engineering Technologist
> > Principal, Biochar Consulting (Canada)
> > www.biochar-consulting.ca
> > 603-48 Suncrest Blvd, Thornhill, ON, Canada
> > 905-707-8754; 647-886-8754 (cell)
> > Skype: lloyd.helferty
> > Steering Committee member, Canadian Biochar Initiative
> > President, Co-founder & CBI Liaison, Biochar-Ontario
> > Advisory Committee Member, IBI
> > http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717
> > http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675
> > http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario
> > http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/
> > http://grassrootsintelligence.blogspot.com
> > www.biochar.ca
> >
> > Biochar Offsets Group: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475
> >
> > On 11/2/2010 1:39 PM, Erin Rasmussen wrote:
> >>
> >> The International Institute for Ecological Agriculture (IIEA) and
> Project
> >> Gaia
> >> invite you to attend the
> >>
> >> The Appropriate-scale Alcohol Fuel Production Seminar:
> >> Global Solutions for Cooking, Refrigeration, Electricity and Transport
> >>
> >> Monday, November 29 - Thursday, December 2, 2010
> >> Embassy Suites, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
> >>
> >> (See the announcement:
> >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/content/appropriate-scale-alcohol-fuel )
> >>
> >> The International Institute for Ecological Agriculture (IIEA) and
> Project
> >> Gaia cordially invite you to attend a seminar focused on the global
> >> production and use of appropriate-scale alcohol fuel. Alcohol fuels
> offer
> an
> >> abundant supply of energy for cooking, heating, refrigeration,
> electricity
> >> and transportation needs.
> >>
> >> Worldwide, over three billion people lack access to modern forms of
> energy
> >> and cook with traditional stoves that burn polluting fuels. Illnesses
> >> resulting from indoor air pollution claim almost 2 million lives
> worldwide
> >> each year. In many parts of the world pneumonia in infants and small
> >> children is the primary cause of death, and evidence links kitchen smoke
> to
> >> chronic bronchitis in women, low birth-weight in children, active TB,
> and
> >> many other ailments. Clean-burning stoves and alcohol fuels can
> dramatically
> >> change these statistics.
> >>
> >> During the 3? day educational seminar, participants will gain an
> in-depth
> >> understanding of ways to:
> >>
> >> * Provide pollution-free energy for safe indoor cooking and other
> uses
> >> * Stabilize domestic fuel production costs to less than 30
> cents/liter
> >> (USD)
> >> * Curb deforestation, black carbon emissions and global
> warming?while
> >> earning carbon credits
> >> * Integrate domestic food and energy production
> >> * Identify high-value, high-yield crops for all climates to produce
> >> sustainable energy and increase soil fertility
> >> * Create and encourage permanent local jobs
> >> * Learn about micro distillery manufacturing investment and
> distribution
> >> opportunities and how to couple stoves with distilleries
> >>
> >> Registration for this unique program is limited and ?invitation only?.
> The
> >> seminar is ideally suited to the information needs of government and NGO
> >> officials, energy, agriculture, public health, economic and
> environmental
> >> policy makers, secondary and university educators, labor leaders, motor
> >> fleet and facility supervisors, climate policy experts, infrastructure
> >> investment bankers, waste water treatment managers and domestic food
> >> production professionals.
> >>
> >> Seminar Registration is $700.00 USD per participant
> >> To book your room reservation, please use (
> >>
>
> http://embassysuites.hilton.com/en/es/groups/personalized/A/ATLLXES-IEG-2010
> >> 1128/index.jhtml?WT.mc_id=POG ) or call 404-261-7733
> >> Group Name: The Intl? Institute for Ecological Agriculture - Group Code:
> IEG
> >>
> >> For program details, venue logistics or to register, please contact:
> >> Tom Harvey/ IIEA: +01 (530) 257-3533 at thcommunications at gmail.comBrady
> >> Luceno/ Project Gaia: +1 (717) 334-5594 at bluceno at projectgaia.com
> >> Find IIEA at www.permaculture.com and Project Gaia at
> www.projectgaia.com
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Harry Stokes [mailto:hstokesoffice at gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 6:31 PM
> >> To: 'Tom Miles'
> >> Cc: Joe Obueh (PG); 'Brady Luceno'; 'Gulce Askin'
> >> Subject: Announcement of the IIEA-Project Gaia Appropriate Scale Alcohol
> >> Fuel Production Seminar -- Global Solution for Cooking, etc.
> >>
> >> Dear Tom,
> >>
> >> Would you kindly put the attached announcement of the Atlanta seminar on
> the
> >> Bioenergy Listserv? That would be terrific if you would.
> >>
> >> The announcement is the first attachment. The second attachment is
> provided
> >> to show you what types of topics will be covered by David Blume of IIEA.
> >>
> >> David is author of the best-selling book "Alcohol Can Be a Gas" which is
> a
> >> great read, and also a technical storehouse of knowledge. Not only is
> the
> >> book really fun to read, it is also the most valuable resource on small
> >> scale distillation--and maybe distillation science in general--that I
> have
> >> ever encountered. It is a great achievement.
> >>
> >> If you know of anywhere else we should announce this, please let us
> know.
> >>
> >> David Blume and a core team of developers are raising capital for a
> business
> >> that will essentially mass produce small, efficient, simple but highly
> >> engineered micro distilleries. These distilleries will be produced for
> >> maybe half the cost or less of a large distillery, on a unit cost basis,
> and
> >> the economics of ethanol production from these plants, especially
> >> considering the value of co-products, will be enormously good.
> >>
> >> We hope to put these micro distilleries to use in Africa and Haiti. We
> are
> >> being inundated with interest in the idea. A number of West Africans
> are
> >> already signed up for the Atlanta seminar. We would like to draw in
> some
> >> people from Central America as well.
> >>
> >> David and his team are raising investment capital for the plant, and are
> >> putting out a private placement offer for purchase of shares in the
> >> business. They have a detailed prospectus that could go out to
> seriously
> >> interested investors.
> >>
> >> Would you be interested? Or do you know others who might be? If you
> are
> or
> >> do, I will send you a one-page prospectus introduction and information
> on
> >> how to contact Blume Distillation LLC. This is not for the Listserv, but
> >> just for you and people you would pass it on to one-on-one.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >> Harry
> >>
> >> P.S. We are looking for a briquetting and biochar expert for the Haiti
> >> project, and I was in touch with Lloyd Helferty, some time back. This
> would
> >> have to be a group or business that would be able to come in and
> piggyback
> >> on what we are doing, without needing to draw resources from us--e.g. a
> team
> >> member that could pull their own weight.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> >> Stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
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--
Carolina Romero
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