[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 11, Issue 7
IPC
ipcipc at mweb.co.za
Mon Jul 11 15:03:58 CDT 2011
James Robinson wants a practical thing for children. I use a candle to get
the essential elements across - it is all there, the unburned fuel near the
wick, the combustion with burning of the carbon giving incandescence, the
incomplete combustion (try running the flame across a slanted, cold plate),
the radiant heat melting the wax, even the wick bending out of the flame and
the tip glowing, so that you no longer need to trim the wick on a modern
candle. By the time you have been through capillary action, the 90 minutes
are up.
Philip Lloyd
-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
Sent: 11 July 2011 09:00
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 11, Issue 7
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 11, Issue 6 (David Osborne)
2. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 11, Issue 6 (Anand Karve)
3. Joburg city news: Improved stoves for traders
(Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
4. School/Educational material (James Robinson)
5. Re: School/Educational material (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
6. Google Alert - ADB agrees $4 mln grant to boost biomass use
(Google Alerts)
7. Re: School/Educational material (Bojca Janu?)
8. Re: Re household cooking (Frank Shields)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 23:15:04 +0100
From: David Osborne <celsius4u at hotmail.com>
To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 11, Issue 6
Message-ID: <COL123-W28B216C4C5F2E637D21321F8420 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Re. Household cooking.
We are about to undertake a paper in Kenya to complete a social and health
impact study. Glasgow Uni and Celsius Global Solutions (CGS) are to test the
Jompy boiler in situ completing necessary information, there is room for a
stove trial, what do you have on mind?
www.jompy.co.uk
You can contact me openly or in private. Email, celsius4u at hotmail.com
> From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 11, Issue 6
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 12:00:02 -0700
>
> Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenerg
> ylists.org
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> stoves-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Re household cooking (John Davies)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 08:34:51 +0200
> From: "John Davies" <jmdavies at telkomsa.net>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Re household cooking
> Message-ID: <001501cc3ecb$79ffc430$6dff4c90$@telkomsa.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Paal wrote,
>
>
>
> There is a need of a practical test where fuel and stove are evaluated
> together with the user. If you are saving some some energy and some
> minutes in time of cooking, it can easy be lost by handling the fuel
> and the stove or by cleaning the pots. The stove, the fuel and the
> cook is one unit, working together with respect for each others
specialities.
>
>
>
>
>
> These are very wise words. At the first demonstration of my TLUD
> bituminous coal stove, which uses a chimney, with the pot sealing the
> top of the stove. I remember the reaction of some of the onlookers.
>
>
>
> After lighting the stove, and placing the pot, smoke exited the
> chimney, and stopped after less than 1 minute. I knew that the
> chimney had started drafting, pulling secondary air into the flame and
causing the clean burn.
>
> One onlooker pronounced that the fire had extinguished, and many
> others agreed. Lifting the pot allowed a smoky flame to exit the
> stove. I replaced the pot and told them that the water would be boiling in
4 minutes. This
> caused much amusement and shaking of heads. Now there was much
> inspection of what was going on, with people standing close to the
> stove, feeling the heat and watching the chimney. The water boiled in
> 4 minutes, much to the amazement of many.
>
>
>
> This proves Paal's comment about the user component. How does one
> explain to the user, and gain their acceptance that there can be fire
without smoke.
> Especially if the flame cannot be seen. A case of training, training,
> training. With this stove, part of the answer was to drill a 3mm peep
> hole at a strategic place, so that the user could see the flame.
>
>
>
> Even if the user does not fully understand what is going on,
> acceptance is the minimum criteria. Acceptance to accept what cannot
> be understood, and acceptance of all the operating instructions. Not
> always an easy task, but proof that intensive training of the user is
needed.
>
>
>
> Greetings to all, and keep up the good work.
>
>
>
> John Davies.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 11, Issue 6
> *************************************
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 12:19:47 +0800
From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: Priyadarshini Karve <priyadarshini.karve at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 11, Issue 6
Message-ID:
<CACPy7SeoM8-1gFAe+XC03gCriWcZ+MP1YvAtQtTZkiPEHacHBw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Our Sarai Cooking system has been a great hit in East Africa. It is a steam
cooker that uses charcoal made from agricultural and urban combustible
waste. Already about 50,000 of them are in use all over the world. The
beauty of the Sarai system is that it is automatic. You just ignite the
briquettes, load the cooking vessels with food, close the lid, and come back
after an hour. By that time the char briquettes have burned themselves out,
the fire extinguished and the food ready to eat.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 6:15 AM, David Osborne <celsius4u at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Re. Household cooking.
> We are about to undertake a paper in Kenya to complete a social and
> health impact study. Glasgow Uni and Celsius Global Solutions (CGS)
> are to test the Jompy boiler in situ completing necessary information,
> there is room for a stove trial, what do you have on mind?
> www.jompy.co.uk
> You can contact me openly or in private. Email, celsius4u at hotmail.com
>
>> From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 11, Issue 6
>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 12:00:02 -0700
>>
>> Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioener
>> gylists.org
>>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> stoves-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Re household cooking (John Davies)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 08:34:51 +0200
>> From: "John Davies" <jmdavies at telkomsa.net>
>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Re household cooking
>> Message-ID: <001501cc3ecb$79ffc430$6dff4c90$@telkomsa.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Paal wrote,
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a need of a practical test where fuel and stove are
>> evaluated together with the user. If you are saving some some energy
>> and some minutes in time of cooking, it can easy be lost by handling
>> the fuel and the stove or by cleaning the pots. The stove, the fuel
>> and the cook is one unit, working together with respect for each
>> others specialities.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> These are very wise words. At the first demonstration of my TLUD
>> bituminous coal stove, which uses a chimney, with the pot sealing the
>> top of the stove. I remember the reaction of some of the onlookers.
>>
>>
>>
>> After lighting the stove, and placing the pot, smoke exited the
>> chimney, and stopped after less than 1 minute. I knew that the
>> chimney had started drafting, pulling secondary air into the flame
>> and causing the clean burn.
>>
>> One onlooker pronounced that the fire had extinguished, and many
>> others agreed. Lifting the pot allowed a smoky flame to exit the
>> stove. I replaced the pot and told them that the water would be
>> boiling in 4 minutes. This caused much amusement and shaking of
>> heads. Now there was much inspection of what was going on, with
>> people standing close to the stove, feeling the heat and watching the
>> chimney. The water boiled in 4 minutes, much to the amazement of
>> many.
>>
>>
>>
>> This proves Paal's comment about the user component. How does one
>> explain to the user, and gain their acceptance that there can be fire
>> without smoke.
>> Especially if the flame cannot be seen. A case of training, training,
>> training. With this stove, part of the answer was to drill a 3mm peep
>> hole at a strategic place, so that the user could see the flame.
>>
>>
>>
>> Even if the user does not fully understand what is going on,
>> acceptance is the minimum criteria. Acceptance to accept what cannot
>> be understood, and acceptance of all the operating instructions. Not
>> always an easy task, but proof that intensive training of the user is
needed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Greetings to all, and keep up the good work.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Davies.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> scrubbed...
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioener
>> gylists.org
>>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 11, Issue 6
>> *************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> ylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, ?News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
--
***
Dr. A.D. Karve
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
*Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:05:20 -0400
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "Stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Stoves] Joburg city news: Improved stoves for traders
Message-ID: <085401cc3fcb$34dad790$9e9086b0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: James Robinson [jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com]
http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?option=com_content
<http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6838&
catid=88&Itemid=266> &view=article&id=6838&catid=88&Itemid=266
This article is typical of how the main stream media treat technical issues
for popular consumption. Unfortunately it is slightly inaccurate to the
point of being misleading, even dangerous.
"These imbawulas will help us a great deal because they do not produce
poisonous gases [like] the normal imbawulas. The good thing about these
imbawulas is that they burn faster, so this means we will be able to serve
our customers quickly," said Mashele.
This is likely to be interpreted by readers to mean that carbon-monoxide is
not produced by the imbawula (mbaula) which is definitely not the case. As
so many people are poisoned by CO each year, the interpretation might be
good for the stove business or product adoption, but people will probably
think they can use the device indoors with closed windows.
There is also some confusion about the word 'carbon'. It reads, ".stoves,
that cut poisonous carbon emissions" meaning that 'carbon emitted is
poisonous'. This of course refers both to the CO but also to the
oft-repeated meme the carbon dioxide is a 'pollutant' and therefore must be
'poisonous'. Oh well. Obviously they mean carbon-monoxide which is
poisonous, but they then indicate it doesn't produce any. Arghh!
There is a link at the bottom of the page to
http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?option=com_content
<http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4308&
catid=120&Itemid=201> &view=article&id=4308&catid=120&Itemid=201 which is
the Basa Njengo Magogo fire lighting method page. James Robinson and Vinny
Molapo have done quite a bit of work measuring the emissions improved
mbaulas (emabaula) and there are reliable methods that produce relative
reductions in CO and PM2.5 both with the BNJ lighting method (almost a TLUD)
and better air hole placement.
Regards
Crispin
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:04:41 +0200
From: James Robinson <jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Stoves] School/Educational material
Message-ID:
<CA+GwNepiKLO+CaZHr8pMLsFHAEOFvzZROnxF2fCgFUcA=s393g at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi all,
I've got to give a workshop at a local school here in Johannesburg to a
group of 13-14 year old kids - so does anyone know of some existing
educational materials on combustion, biomass and stoves that I could use? A
mixture of theory and hands-on would be good. It doesn't need to be too in
depth as I've only got 90 minutes, although we can leave a training pack
with the teachers.
Cheers
James
--
James Robinson
Basic Energy Specialist and Laboratory Manager
SeTAR Centre
University of Johannesburg
Bunting Road Campus
Republic of South Africa
Desk: +27 11 559 1901
Cell: +27 71 153 1485
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:18:44 +0000 (UTC)
From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
To: jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com, Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: Jock Gill <jg45 at mac.com>, Kelpie Wilson <kelpiew at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] School/Educational material
Message-ID:
<2023957574.468564.1310401124986.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.co
mcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
James (with ccs)
I am not aware of anything that is general - and especially been approved by
any educational community group. Jock and Kelpie are several who have done
something already in classrooms and may be able to help - more on making
charcoal, though.
I think you will find quite a bit of good video stove material that you can
draw from.
The key concepts (came to me in random order - you can get a better order) I
think you should try to get across are:
a. The chemistry of combustion. - a biomass (looking like C6H12O6) + O2
giving CO2 and water. Should be able to find test procedures to show the
magnitudes as 21% oxygen is reduced.
b. The fact that biomass combustion occurs in two steps - first pyrolysis
(with not much oxygen needed) and then gasification of the charcoal (with a
lot more air needed). Understanding the flame and char-making in a match is
a good place to start. Need to get across the idea of gases exiting the fuel
(making CO at first) , preventing combustion of the remaining material
(char).
Might want to insert the idea of retorts in here. Maybe the idea of starting
fires with a magnifying glass - and how fuel size factors in.
c. Something about chimneys - that height and temperature are important for
moving the needed O2.. The advantage of enough chimney can help avoid soot
on the pot.
d. That one can control primary air and secondary separately. Maybe here
something on top-lighting vs bottom lighting and the movement of pyrolysis
fronts (speed as a function of primary air supply. Maybe something on
preheating secondary air. Showing a video on Worldstove's Lucia (TLOD - with
non-combustible gas flow, Venturi effect, etc) can get across a lot of stove
ideas - but probably not in 90 minutes.
e. Something on fuels - and how excess moisture can kill any stove. How the
size and shape of fuels controls air flow. Get in the concept of flow
resistance. How making charcoal inefficiently is harmful to the environment
(producing carcinogenic gases like those in cigarette smoke).
How to start a stove fire is important. Tinder, small pieces of fuel - why
important?
f. Something on how excess air can lower temperature to the cookpot - one
can bring in too much air. (as in all 3-stone fires)
g. Something on coupling the exhaust gases to the cookpot - the use of
convection shields. Maybe something on different shaped pots. The impact of
pot lids.
h. Something on stove materials. from three stones to all clay/bricks
(heavy), tin cans (light), etc.
i. I think you should try to get in some health statistics. (check with PCIA
- www. pcia online.org/ ) How charcoal-using stoves have caused many deaths.
How open fires have caused many burns, etc . The best authority in this area
is Kirk Smith (UC Berkeley).
Obviously you are looking at a lot to get across - and 90 minutes can't even
do half of the above. But most ofl the ideas can be mentioned. Making and
testing a simple TLUD and a simple rocket can be assigned as a homework
assignment (comparing to three stones, electric ranges (where you can
measure kWh), candles, alcohol stoves, etc.).
More than the above is at most of Tom Miles' lists - not just the stoves
list. You will find a lot of good stove material also on the biochar,
gasification, digestion and maybe otherquickly lists.
This is as close to a total data dump as I could do - I look forward to
seeing/hearing what else could be accomplished in a 90 minute unit. Best of
luck.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Robinson" <jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 9:04:41 AM
Subject: [Stoves] School/Educational material
Hi all,
I've got to give a workshop at a local school here in Johannesburg to a
group of 13-14 year old kids - so does anyone know of some existing
educational materials on combustion, biomass and stoves that I could use? A
mixture of theory and hands-on would be good. It doesn't need to be too in
depth as I've only got 90 minutes, although we can leave a training pack
with the teachers.
Cheers
James
--
James Robinson
Basic Energy Specialist and Laboratory Manager
SeTAR Centre
University of Johannesburg
Bunting Road Campus
Republic of South Africa
Desk: +27 11 559 1901
Cell: +27 71 153 1485
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
http://www.bioenergylists.org/
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:55:56 -0700
From: "Google Alerts" <googlealerts-noreply at google.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, <biochar at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Stoves] Google Alert - ADB agrees $4 mln grant to boost
biomass use
Message-ID: <00b701cc3feb$67b87cb0$37297610$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
News
1 new result for biochar
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&q=http://www.saigon-gpdaily.com.vn/National/
2011/7/94503/&ct=ga&cad=CAcQARgBIAAoATAAOABAz-Pq8ARIAVgBYgVlbi1VUw&cd=74shmj
wHsrY&usg=AFQjCNFtgDIfBzlZuVeXOVBrclGTuP9JjQ> ADB agrees $4 mln grant to
boost biomass use SGGP ADB said the project would fund pilot investment
projects to scale up biomass technologies such as household biogas systems,
biochar kilns, and improved ...
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:20:45 +0200
From: Bojca Janu? <bojcajanus at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] School/Educational material
Message-ID:
<CADYMQztS0W2xQBJmwfdxbg6Jec07TY5cSM9jCkkboZSvP2gKqg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi,
I hope you will find these helpful:
http://dome-school-biochar.wikispaces.com/3-10-10+Microscope+Activity,+Gasif
ier+Construction,+and+Carbon+Cycle+Diagrams
http://www.greenyourhead.com/2010/04/the-dome-school-stove.html
http://dome-school-biochar.wikispaces.com/
http://greenyourhead.typepad.com/files/how-to-make-dome-school-biochar-stove
.pdf
Best,
Bojca
2011/7/11 James Robinson <jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com>
> Hi all,
>
> I've got to give a workshop at a local school here in Johannesburg to
> a group of 13-14 year old kids - so does anyone know of some existing
> educational materials on combustion, biomass and stoves that I could
> use? A mixture of theory and hands-on would be good. It doesn't need
> to be too in depth as I've only got 90 minutes, although we can leave
> a training pack with the teachers.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> --
>
> James Robinson
>
> Basic Energy Specialist and Laboratory Manager
>
> SeTAR Centre
>
> University of Johannesburg
>
> Bunting Road Campus
>
> Republic of South Africa
>
> Desk: +27 11 559 1901
>
> Cell: +27 71 153 1485
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenerg
> ylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
--
Lp, Bojca
http://permakulturazatelebane.wordpress.com/
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:49:18 -0700
From: "Frank Shields" <frank at compostlab.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Re household cooking
Message-ID: <C6CD834DC04547479F780FBC7840E419 at cl.local>
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Stovers,
Fuel, stove and user - three things that must come together.
I agree with Paal that there should be a practical test for stove and fuel.
My thinking is regarding testing fuel. But my test methods I packaged up are
not simple & practical as they must be sent to a lab.
Along the lines of what Paal is writing about I would like to suggest
another procedure that could quickly be done in the field. If we can
standardize a 'Burn Procedure' that would add fuel to a fixed sized and
designed container with a fixed and agreed upon air flow, ignite it and make
observations. This could be done in the field and using standard equipment
and marking standard observations, we could all discuss the fuel and stove
it has found to work well in. For TLUD fuel we could use glass containers
(light bulb shells) to be able to make the observations we need like depth
of front, evenness of front, rate etc.
Frank.
Frank Shields
Control Laboratories, Inc.
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
frank at compostlab.com
www.compostlab.com
_____
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Paal wendelbo
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 12:46 AM
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: [Stoves] Re household cooking
Dear Tom and Crispin
Crispin is right. There is a need of a more practical test in addition to
the more academically one, which sometimes can be difficult for the end user
to really understand. # Some people are hopeless at operating a stove #,
Crispin said. If the map and the terrain dos not correspond, which one is
wrong?
There is a need of a practical test where fuel and stove are evaluated
together with the user. If you are saving some some energy and some minutes
in time of cooking, it can easy be lost by handling the fuel and the stove
or by cleaning the pots. The stove, the fuel and the cook is one unit,
working together with respect for each others specialities.
With regards Paal W
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