[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2

cavm at aol.com cavm at aol.com
Thu Jun 2 18:12:40 CDT 2011


0 
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-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
Sender: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 12:00:02 
To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Reply-To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: FW:  Where is the Stove Comparison (Tom Miles)
   2. Re: FW:  Where is the Stove Comparison (Erin Rasmussen)
   3. Re: Where is the Stove Comparison (Art Donnelly)
   4. Re: Char (Tom Miles)
   5. Re: Where is the Stove Comparison (Art Donnelly)
   6. Re: Char (Frank Shields)
   7. Re: Cooking hood (Tom Miles)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:02:59 -0700
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] FW:  Where is the Stove Comparison
Message-ID: <008701cc208e$863e0c80$92ba2580$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

Crispin, Jan,

I'll have to eal with this from the office later tonight. 

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 12:00 PM
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
Subject: [Stoves] FW: Where is the Stove Comparison

Here they are.
Crispin
-----
Crispin,

Were there files attached to your response?  I did not see any.

Thanks,
Francesco

On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Jan
>
> Thanks for the reminder. It is not a large file.
> It is a spreadsheet and a PDF with explanations and caveats. There 
> could always be more. Testing stoves is a messy business.
>
> So, don't read too much into any particular test, though they were 
> chose to be representative of the technologies involved. It is 
> expected that during the next three years we will make improvements on 
> all of them. The ignition of the stoves involves 'technique' and as 
> those skills are developed and transferred, we expect even better
performance.
>
> You will see that two classes of stove, TLUD and Crossdraft, are 
> consistently performing well no makes who makes it. I have not been 
> making downdraft stoves for this market but will do so from July. That 
> will bring in another strong contender into the 99% reduction class.
>
> It is not clearly stated that the stoves are developed for a 
> particular fuel (lignite from Nalaikh Mine). They can be adapted to 
> any fuel as far as I understand things. We are going to try goat dung 
> during the coming year.
> Dung burners: don't forget we are going to work out something for 
> Central Asia!
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
> +++++++++
>
> Crispin,
>
> During March you said that a stove comparison of 17 different stoves 
> falling into one of the following four stove types was about to be
> issued:
>
> Traditional bottom lit updraft
> Crossdraft
> Top lit updraft
> Bottom lit downdraft
>
> I haven't seen it anywhere.  Can you tell me when it is going to be 
> issued, or, if it already has been, where I can find it?
>
> Jan Bianchi
>




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 18:24:07 -0400
From: "Erin Rasmussen" <erin at trmiles.com>
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Stoves] FW:  Where is the Stove Comparison
Message-ID: <20110601182407.1702 at web005.nyc1.bluetie.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi All,

I posted the attachments to the Biomass Cooking Stoves web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/en/content/stoves-comparisons
as attachments to the story on that page.

So if you are visiting it from the home page,  (http://www.bioenergylists.org) click on the story title to get the story page and be able to download the attached files. 

(There has been a lot of online virus activity floating around in email this spring - and while I've tried to preserve the functionality on the list, it wouldn't surprise me if there is an attachment filter in effect again. I'll have to check when I get into the office tomorrow - i'm home and have limited access). 

Happy June 1,
Erin Rasmusen
List Admin
erin at trmiles.com

-----Original Message-----
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" [crispinpigott at gmail.com]
Date: 06/01/2011 12:00 PM
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Stoves] FW:  Where is the Stove Comparison

Here they are.
Crispin
-----
Crispin,

Were there files attached to your response?  I did not see any.

Thanks,
Francesco

On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Jan
>
> Thanks for the reminder. It is not a large file.
> It is a spreadsheet and a PDF with explanations and caveats. There 
> could always be more. Testing stoves is a messy business.
>
> So, don't read too much into any particular test, though they were 
> chose to be representative of the technologies involved. It is 
> expected that during the next three years we will make improvements on 
> all of them. The ignition of the stoves involves 'technique' and as 
> those skills are developed and transferred, we expect even better
performance.
>
> You will see that two classes of stove, TLUD and Crossdraft, are 
> consistently performing well no makes who makes it. I have not been 
> making downdraft stoves for this market but will do so from July. That 
> will bring in another strong contender into the 99% reduction class.
>
> It is not clearly stated that the stoves are developed for a 
> particular fuel (lignite from Nalaikh Mine). They can be adapted to 
> any fuel as far as I understand things. We are going to try goat dung 
> during the coming year.
> Dung burners: don't forget we are going to work out something for 
> Central Asia!
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
> +++++++++
>
> Crispin,
>
> During March you said that a stove comparison of 17 different stoves 
> falling into one of the following four stove types was about to be
> issued:
>
> Traditional bottom lit updraft
> Crossdraft
> Top lit updraft
> Bottom lit downdraft
>
> I haven't seen it anywhere.  Can you tell me when it is going to be 
> issued, or, if it already has been, where I can find it?
>
> Jan Bianchi
>




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 16:30:57 -0700
From: Art Donnelly <art.donnelly at seachar.org>
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Where is the Stove Comparison
Message-ID: <BANLkTikht=C=yf0NGVfOWdk+maQker8iAg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi Stovers,

This was a great opportunity for me to break out of my two year "lurker"
role and contribute. I have quite a bit of first hand experience with goat
droppings as both a TLUD fuel input and a biochar soil amendment. In late
2009 I was asked by researchers at PATH to evaluate it as a potential fuel
in a possible stove project, which they were planning in northern Senegal.
Although the project did not get funded, I had very good results with this
type of dung.

It, of course, has a lower density than man-made pellets. However, if you
could get those goats to squeeze a bit harder (a stand in one place), it
would be perfect. It burns very cleanly and smells great. I had the
resulting Goat poop charcoal tested for ph, adsorption and adsorption, by Dr
Hugh McLaughlin. As a soil amendment it's high ash content would give it a
significant liming effect, but this was largely neutralized by rinsing.

It worked well in pot tests and I have attached Hugh's data sheets.

We have not had much of a chance to work with this in the field, not a lot
of goats in Central America. However this has become a staple fuel in my
High School stove building workshops. What 15 year old doesn't like to light
poop on fire?

Art Donnelly

-- 
"SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 07:04:44 -0700
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: 'Biochar-production' <Biochar-production at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char
Message-ID: <000601cc212e$07b70970$17251c50$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="utf-8"

Ron,

Frank seems to say that bagasse chars while composting at 70C. It is clearly not just heated to 70C but undergoes biological degradation at the same time. apparently the higher temperature biological conversion creates a char that resists degradation. I assume that there is a loss of carbon in the process.

Is this "biothermal carbonization"? It could prove to be an interesting technique for rural applications.  

Tom     

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of rongretlarson at comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 1:58 PM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Cc: Biochar-production
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char

Tom and Frank:, stoves list (and adding "biochar-production" ) 

1. To Tom: Are you asking if one gets better compost at this higher temperature? 

2. To Frank: This is the first time I have heard of "char" being produced at anything under about 300 C - usually 400 C and above. Can you clarify? I would think this dark product would disappear from the soil about as fast as any other compost. Even Torrification requires temperatures well above 70 o C. Although it would be great to hear more on this material in any case - which is maybe what Tom is asking. 

One exception is that HTC (hydrothermal carbonization) (maybe called hydrochar) occurs at 230 o C (with corresponding high pressure, and a catalyst) - but might not be so recalcitrant either (recently reported - not sure) . 


Ron 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 1:14:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char 

Frank, 

Is there any benefit to the composting to char or heat part of the bagasse first? 

Tom 

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Frank Shields
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 11:53 AM
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' 
Subject: [Stoves] Char 


Stover's, 

Perhaps of interest, we test products for the Biodegradable Products Institute and some are made from bagasse. When composted at low temperatures < 45 deg C these products break down easily. But when composting temperatures go to 70 deg C the bagasse chars and they remain as the same structure (only darker) as the product we put in the compost. Proof that charring is resistant to biodegradation. 


Frank 





Frank Shields
Control Laboratories, Inc. 
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
frank at compostlab.com
www.compostlab.com 




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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 07:28:59 -0700
From: Art Donnelly <art.donnelly at seachar.org>
To: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
Cc: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Where is the Stove Comparison
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=x5tQqzUH9vJ6zd4eLMiERy2vbfw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Good morning Crispin,
I am reattaching the analysis which I referenced yesterday. I am cc'ing the
list to offer the same thing to anyone else, who is interested in seeing
this information on the goat droppings.
Art

On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:08 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Art
> Please send me the attachment directly. The list seems to be stripping
> everything out of the mails.
> Many thanks
> Crispin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Art Donnelly
> Sent: 01 June 2011 19:31
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Where is the Stove Comparison
>
> Hi Stovers,
>
> This was a great opportunity for me to break out of my two year "lurker"
> role and contribute. I have quite a bit of first hand experience with goat
> droppings as both a TLUD fuel input and a biochar soil amendment. In late
> 2009 I was asked by researchers at PATH to evaluate it as a potential fuel
> in a possible stove project, which they were planning in northern Senegal.
> Although the project did not get funded, I had very good results with this
> type of dung.
>
> It, of course, has a lower density than man-made pellets. However, if you
> could get those goats to squeeze a bit harder (a stand in one place), it
> would be perfect. It burns very cleanly and smells great. I had the
> resulting Goat poop charcoal tested for ph, adsorption and adsorption, by
> Dr
> Hugh McLaughlin. As a soil amendment it's high ash content would give it a
> significant liming effect, but this was largely neutralized by rinsing.
>
> It worked well in pot tests and I have attached Hugh's data sheets.
>
> We have not had much of a chance to work with this in the field, not a lot
> of goats in Central America. However this has become a staple fuel in my
> High School stove building workshops. What 15 year old doesn't like to
> light
> poop on fire?
>
> Art Donnelly
>
> --
> "SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"
>
>


-- 
"SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 10:21:28 -0700
From: "Frank Shields" <frank at compostlab.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char
Message-ID: <08069A6FA5754228A42F0ED5D52A5764 at cl.local>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

Tom,

I think Tom Reed did a lot of work using TGA in analysis of different fuels
going to char and that may give a clue as to the amount of change bagasse
goes through during a temperature ramp. If bagasse was one of the fuels
used. I no longer have his email (as my computer needed a Format) and not
sure where he is selling his books. 

Frank



 
Frank Shields
Control Laboratories, Inc.
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville, CA  95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
frank at compostlab.com
www.compostlab.com
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Tom Miles
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:05 AM
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
Cc: 'Biochar-production'
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char

Ron,

Frank seems to say that bagasse chars while composting at 70C. It is clearly
not just heated to 70C but undergoes biological degradation at the same
time. apparently the higher temperature biological conversion creates a char
that resists degradation. I assume that there is a loss of carbon in the
process.

Is this "biothermal carbonization"? It could prove to be an interesting
technique for rural applications.  

Tom     

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
rongretlarson at comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 1:58 PM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Cc: Biochar-production
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char

Tom and Frank:, stoves list (and adding "biochar-production" ) 

1. To Tom: Are you asking if one gets better compost at this higher
temperature? 

2. To Frank: This is the first time I have heard of "char" being produced at
anything under about 300 C - usually 400 C and above. Can you clarify? I
would think this dark product would disappear from the soil about as fast as
any other compost. Even Torrification requires temperatures well above 70 o
C. Although it would be great to hear more on this material in any case -
which is maybe what Tom is asking. 

One exception is that HTC (hydrothermal carbonization) (maybe called
hydrochar) occurs at 230 o C (with corresponding high pressure, and a
catalyst) - but might not be so recalcitrant either (recently reported - not
sure) . 


Ron 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 1:14:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char 

Frank, 

Is there any benefit to the composting to char or heat part of the bagasse
first? 

Tom 

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Frank Shields
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 11:53 AM
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' 
Subject: [Stoves] Char 


Stover's, 

Perhaps of interest, we test products for the Biodegradable Products
Institute and some are made from bagasse. When composted at low temperatures
< 45 deg C these products break down easily. But when composting
temperatures go to 70 deg C the bagasse chars and they remain as the same
structure (only darker) as the product we put in the compost. Proof that
charring is resistant to biodegradation. 


Frank 





Frank Shields
Control Laboratories, Inc. 
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
frank at compostlab.com
www.compostlab.com 




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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: 
http://www.bioenergylists.org/ 



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http://www.bioenergylists.org/ 



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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 11:38:07 -0700
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>,  <ventfory at iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cooking hood
Message-ID: <001b01cc2154$383db780$a8b92680$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

>From Kobus:

Kevin, Dean, Steve and Joe and others

Thank you for your contributions, I have sent it on to the Peace Corps
volunteer and asked him for a photo update on his progress.

Regards

Kobus
****************

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 8:31 PM
To: ventfory at iafrica.com; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cooking hood

Dear Kobus

There could be a major difference between a "smoke hood" and a "cooking 
hood", in that the smoke hood would have the relative absence of grease from

cooking. If the cooking was mostly boiling and simmering, the steam would 
not be a fire hazard. However, if the cooking was mainly frying, there could

be a significant grease absorption on the hood surfaces, creating a possible

fire hazard. The chimney should be generously sized, to encourage good 
ventilation, and thus cooling. There should be sufficient "air inlet area" 
to the kitchen, to allow for entry of "make-up air." Elbows to get through 
the wall should be sloped, so that if there was grease buildup, it would 
drain back and signal a need for cleaning, rather than pooling and building 
up where it could not be seen. A vertical chimney, through the roof, would 
be best from a draft standpoint, but is structurally more complex, because 
of roof leakage considerations. The penetration through the wall or roof 
should have a "thimble" that creates an air space, with no contact of the 
chimney with combustible material. In warm climates, where heating of the 
living space is not a problem in Winter, an open space can be left around 
the chimney, but if such air loss would be excessive, the space should be 
filled with fiberglass insulation.

The hood needs a velocity of about 100 feet per minute around its open 
perimeter for good pick-up of smoke and grease. (EG, a hood that was 2'x2', 
located in the center of the room, would have an open  perimeter of 8 feet, 
and the flow should be a total of about 800 CFM.  If the stove was located 
in a corner, the same sized hood would only have an open perimeter of 4', 
and would only need a flow of about 400 cfm. To keep the size small, it 
should be mounted as low as, and as close to the top of the cooking area 
that will be convenient for the cook.

Welding is not necessary. Sheet metal can be held together with "angled 
brackets", that are attached to the sheet metal at the joints by rivets. 
Rivets can be made from short length of thick copper wire.

Best wishes,

Kevin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kobus" <ventfory at iafrica.com>
To: "stove list" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 3:54 AM
Subject: [Stoves] Cooking hood


>
> Content analysis details:   (0.0 points)
>
>  pts rule name              description
> ---- ----------------------
--------------------------------------------------
> _SUMMARY_
>
> Does anybody know whether or not it is possible to construct a 'cooking 
> hood' out of material other than metal? I've had a query from a Peace 
> Corps volunteer in Cambodia where they don't have access to welding 
> facilities. The hood is to be positioned above a rocket stove, akin to 
> what you'd expect to find in a 'stove test hood' to catch emissions. Not 
> looking for a 'for' and 'against' hood discussion here but to ask if 
> anybody has any knowledge on this or have any suggestions.
>
> Thanks
>
> -- 
> ________________________________
> Kobus Venter
> http://www.vuthisa.com/
> http://za.linkedin.com/in/vuthisa
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1509/3670 - Release Date: 05/30/11
> 


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------------------------------

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End of Stoves Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2
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