[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 7, Issue 5
Thomas Reed
tombreed2010 at gmail.com
Mon Mar 7 23:15:29 CST 2011
Dear Stover and Gasifier Wonks:
After all the words have settled, it seems to me that "PYROLYTIC GASIFICATION" (as opposed to total air or oxygen gasification) is an adequate description of Toplit Updraft (as well as bottom lit downdraft) gasification.
The air/fuel ratio required for total combustion is about 6/1. The air/fuel ratio required for complete gasification is about 1.5. The air/fuel ratio required for pyrolytic gasification can be as low as 0.9, depending on rate and temperature. Below that I have not been able to maintain the reaction zone, even in bone dry fuel.
CH1.4O0.6 + 0.25 (O2 + 3.76 N2) ==> 0.9 CO + 0.1 CO2 + 0.7 H2
Not gasifying the charcoal greatly reduces the air required for gasification, and probably increases the energy content of the gas say from 150 to 225 Btu/scf, since air does not be supplied to gasifying the charcoal.
CH1.4O0.6 + 0.15 (O2 + 3.76 N2) ==> 0.4C + 0.6 CO+ 0.3H2O + 0.4 H2
(wrong formula for charcoal and there will be methane, but that's the general idea.)
Comments?
Tom Reed
Dr Thomas B Reed
President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
www.Woodgas.com
On Mar 7, 2011, at 12:00, stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. [ Misuderstanding of TLUD stoves Re: Refuelable TLUD
> (Paal wendelbo)
> 2. Re: Misuderstanding of TLUD stoves Re: Refuelable TLUD Coal
> Stove developed in Mongolia that is not a batch process.
> (Paal wendelbo)
> 3. Re: Misuderstanding of TLUD stoves Re: Refuelable TLUD Coal
> Stove developed in Mongolia that is not a batch process. (Kevin)
> 4. Large attachments and what to do? (Frank Shields)
> 5. Re: Large attachments and what to do? (Tom Miles)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 05:05:40 -0500
> From: "Paal wendelbo" <paaw at online.no>
> To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] [ Misuderstanding of TLUD stoves Re: Refuelable TLUD
> Message-ID: <9B392899AB68440A8FB6EEED0D928C53 at firmanav10a4e1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Stovers.
>
> As far I can see the name TLUD is connected to the fuel and the combustion, and can not be a name of a certain stove. LPG, alcohol and kerosene stoves are all TLUDs and can not be ignited from underneath Reeds, Andersons and Peko Pe will not be TLUDs if some drops of kerosene go through the fuel and ignite at the bottom. The Champion stove can even be ignited from underneath, which probably most user will do if they don't have access to kerosene since it is more simple. And if you ad some fuel during time of combustion, is no longer a TLUD.
>
> TLBM- NF and TLBM-FD could probably do, BM stand for biomass, then charcoal and woodstoves will be included in the family if fuel are ignited on top and the refilling is from underneath the glowing. .
>
> The Peko Pe was originally called Multi Fuel Combustion System MFCS,
>
> due to the fact more types of biomass fuel could be utilized.and there was no other way to ignite than on top
>
>
>
> With regards Paal W
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 08:19:04 -0500
> From: "Paal wendelbo" <paaw at online.no>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Misuderstanding of TLUD stoves Re: Refuelable
> TLUD Coal Stove developed in Mongolia that is not a batch process.
> Message-ID: <568E05DBBAFC4769AC0E9489138DCA59 at firmanav10a4e1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Sorry, I can't partrisipate.
> Regards Paal Wendelbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>; "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> Cc: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 4:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Misuderstanding of TLUD stoves Re: Refuelable TLUD
> Coal Stove developed in Mongolia that is not a batch process.
>
>
>> Dear Paul and Ron
>>
>> Quoting "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>:
>>
>>> see below
>>>
>>> Quoting Ron Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>:
>>>
>>>> Paul and ccs:
>>>>
>>>> I had not realized that your Chip Furnace operated in the manner you
>>>> describe below. Am I correct then in assuming that the word pyrolyzer
>>>> (which you didn't use) would be inapproproriate - and that char
>>>> production is minimal?
>>
>> # I would propose for your consideration the following definitions:
>> 1: PYROLYSIS is destructive distillation, yielding a pyrolysis gas, and a
>> char. There are two basic methods for PYROLYSIS:
>> a: The RETORT method, where additional energy required for pyrolysis is
>> provided through the walls of the retort, and
>> b: additional required thermal energy is provided by partial combustion
>> of the pyrolysis gases and/or char through addition of air.
>>
>> 2: GASIFICATION is a process where a solid feedstock is substantially all
>> converted to a gas.
>>
>> It would thus appear that a device that produces significant quantities
>> of char, whether by accident or intent, would be a PYROLYZER and not a
>> GASIFIER.
>>>
>>> Char production is controlable by the operator. With fast throughput,
>>> we could extract chars with many volatiles and some torrified fuel.
>>
>> It is my understanding that this would not be a controllable process.
>> Have you actually been able to produce charcoal AND torrified wood at the
>> same time in teh same reactor, OR was the product a mixture of char plus
>> partially charred wood?
>>
>> With very slow throughput, it could output only
>>> ash/minimal char. The control also allows for use of different fuel in
>>> the same device (but not at the same time). Chip Energy furnaces make
>>> char if (and how) you want it.
>>
>> # A FURNACE is NOT a "GASIFIER" or "PYROLYZER". A FURNACE is a device
>> whose intended purpose is the release of heat through combustion of a
>> fuel.
>>>>
>>>> But also that much of your other writing is on char-making stoves of
>>>> a batch type and that you would then not use the term "gasifier"?
>>>
>>> "Gasification" to the majority of readers includes making gases via
>>> pyrolysis and/or by char-gasification.
>>
>> # A PYROLYSER produces a fuel gas PLUS a char product. A GASIFIER is
>> intended to convert all, or substantially all, of the feedstock into a
>> fuel gas for subsequent use elsewhere. If you gasify char, then it is a
>> gasifier. If you produce char, it is a pyrolyser.
>>
>>> A gasifier can pyrolyze.
>>
>> # True, but a GASIFIER does not have CHAR as a desirable end product. A
>> device that has CHAR as a desirable end product is a PYROLYZER. It stops
>> the pyrolysis at the char stage, and does not continue on to gasify the
>> char.
>>>>
>>>> I have not heard whether Nat Mulcahy demonstrated at the Ethos
>>>> meeting that he could add extra fuel at the end of a run - and that
>>>> TLUD was therefore Inappropriate for his design.
>>>
>>> Nat did not operate any of his stoves at ETHOS. He did explain why he
>>> does not consider his stoves to be TLUD technology.
>>>>
>>>> I believe (perhaps like Crispin) that a BLDD could produce char - and
>>>> could add extra fuel at the top - and hope that someone will report on
>>>> that pair of desirable characteristics in a collating.
>>
>> # Definitely. A "Stratified Downdraft Gasifier" can be operated in a
>> manner where biomass can be added continuously and char can be produced
>> continuously, and a fuel gas can be produced continuously. There is a
>> requirement for continuous removal of char.
>>>
>>> Good luck. I too await such a report, but that technology works against
>>> the creation of char.
>>
>> # If the desired objective is char production, then it is basically a
>> PYROLYSER. If the desired production is a fuel gas, then it is basically
>> a GASIFIER. If the desired production is HEAT, the it is a FURNACE.
>>
>>
>> Meanwhile, I have a char-making device
>>> in the form of the Chip Energy Biomass Furnace and (as of this past
>>> month) the Chip Energy "Dragon" (shoots out fire or combustible gases to
>>> the user-provided destination/application - US$15,000 with variable
>>> configurations.)
>>
>> # Does it burn gases to completion? What is the heat output rate? What
>> percentage of the energy in the input fuel shows up as heat, and what
>> percentage of the input fuel energy shows up in the char? Can the
>> "Combustible Gases" be piped elsewhere for use?
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Kevin
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor
>>> Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 3, 2011, at 12:30 PM, "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at gmail.com>:
>>>>> snipped
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A TLUD is just a down draft built upside down. They can be refuelled
>>>>>> continuously but if the desire is to get char out, that could be a
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>> This is a very common misunderstanding that was even promoted by Tom
>>>>> Reed who initialy call it "inverted down draft" gasification.
>>>>>
>>>>> In a true downdraft gasifier, there is a hot zone that stays at the
>>>>> bottom all the time, and the fuel moves downward to it, becomes char
>>>>> and is later subjected to char gasification. The air flow is also
>>>>> downward.
>>>>>
>>>>> In a TLUD, the hot zone starts at the top, but then the hot pyrolysis
>>>>> front migrates downward until reaching the bottom of the fuel pile.
>>>>> That is FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT from the downdraft gasifiers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore, after the pyrolysis front reaches the bottom, the air
>>>>> flow still continues to be updraft. Placing a significant amount of
>>>>> fuel onto the top of the fuel bed can cause variations in the gases
>>>>> created (initially much water vapor while the fuel is drying, then the
>>>>> pyrolytic gases start later).
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: In the case of the Chip Energy Biomass Furnace
>>>>> (www.chipenergy.com) which is a true updraft gasifier with continuous
>>>>> operation (and the hot zone is at the bottom where the air is
>>>>> entering), the new fuel enters in small amounts, avoiding the problem
>>>>> mentioned in the above paragraph about water vapor.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this helps explain what is happening in the TLUDs
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> This message was sent using Illinois State University RedbirdMail
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 10:41:59 -0400
> From: "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott"
> <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> Cc: Hugh McLaughlin <wastemin1 at verizon.net>, 'Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves' <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Misuderstanding of TLUD stoves Re: Refuelable
> TLUD Coal Stove developed in Mongolia that is not a batch process.
> Message-ID: <AF793285A51248CA84D16CE2511906BA at usera594fda0bf>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Dear Paul
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>; "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott"
> <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Hugh McLaughlin" <wastemin1 at verizon.net>; "'Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 12:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Misuderstanding of TLUD stoves Re: Refuelable TLUD
> Coal Stove developed in Mongolia that is not a batch process.
>
>
>> Go to the bottom of Crispin's message for my reply.
>
> ...del...
>
>>
>> Crispin. Correct. The Chip Energy Biomass Furnace is NOT a TLUD. That
>> is what I have said.
>
> # OK... would you agree that a "FURNACE" is a device whose purpose is to
> burn a fuel to release heat? If so, do you have data for the combustion
> efficiency? More specifically:
> 1: What percentage of the energy in the incoming fuel leaves with the flue
> gases as unburned combustibles?
> 2: What percentage of the energy in the incoming fuel leaves with the ash as
> a "char loss?"
>>
>> Concerning your other comments, the problem is that the term "downdraft"
>> is being used as the SINGLE descriptor of several strikingly different
>> types of gasifiers.
>
> # OK, but if we are talking about a FURNACE, whose purpose is generation of
> heat from fuel, a GASIFIER is a very poor furnace, in that much of the fuel
> energy leaves the system as chemical energy.
>
> I have used the term "true"
>> when maybe I should have said "traditional, as seen in the textbooks
>> descriptions." OTHER modifier words would be useful to describe the
>> different variations of downdraft devices with which you are working.
>> But you need to do that, not me. You need to be clear about what
>> variation of downdraft gasifier you are referring.
>
> # I am not at all clear whether the Chip Energy Furnace is a FURNACE, a
> GASIFIER, or a PYROLYSER. The Brochure at:
> http://www.chipenergy.com/brochurefurnace.htm seems to suggest that there
> would be a significant percentage of unburned fuel leaving the system as
> char. That would give a very low furnace efficiency. It would appear to be
> more of a "continuous feed Bottom Lit Up Draft pyrolyser. having a close
> coupled pyrolysis gas burner with heat recovery." However, if the "smoke
> eater" was removed, then the pyrolysis gases could be used elsewhere as a
> fuel gas, and the system, as an air blown pyrolyser, would then be a char
> producing gasifier. If we define the Chip Energy Biomass Furnace by the job
> it does best, what would you say is the "job that the Chip Energy Biomass
> Furnace" does best?
>>
>> And I will try to do likewise.
>
> # Thanks!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>>
>> Paul
>>>
>>> Interesting.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Crispin
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 09:42:53 -0800
> From: "Frank Shields" <frank at compostlab.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] Large attachments and what to do?
> Message-ID: <A4A9E9E765B9483CB78E294ADCE76F3F at scl.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Oops! Sorry about that. Hope it didn't cause too many problems.
>
> Will likely not attach anything again but if I (or anyone else) does do you
> just automatically take care of it or should we send them to you first? How
> do you want this to work?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Tom Miles
> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 9:06 AM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Can anyone explain this one?
>
>
>
> Frank,
>
> I didn't see the size of your attachment when I let it through. Ordinarily
> we put large files on the web and post the link so that people with slow
> internet connections are not bogged down or pay a lot for something they may
> not be interested in. While most people on this list probably have good
> connections many in developing countries still struggle with low bandwidth.
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Frank Shields
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 2:07 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: [Stoves] Can anyone explain this one?
>
>
>
> Greetings all,
>
> Hope the attachment works. Seems too good to be true.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> Frank Shields
>
> Soil Control Lab
>
> 42 Hangar Way
>
> Watsonville, CA 95076
>
> (831) 724-5422
>
> frank at compostlab.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 09:56:27 -0800
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Large attachments and what to do?
> Message-ID: <011a01cbdcf0$fc591770$f50b4650$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Frank,
>
> Erin and I are the "Auto-magic" You can also send them to us at
> tmiles at trmiles.com
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Frank Shields
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:43 AM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: [Stoves] Large attachments and what to do?
>
>
>
> Oops! Sorry about that. Hope it didn't cause too many problems.
>
> Will likely not attach anything again but if I (or anyone else) does do you
> just automatically take care of it or should we send them to you first? How
> do you want this to work?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Tom Miles
> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 9:06 AM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Can anyone explain this one?
>
>
>
> Frank,
>
> I didn't see the size of your attachment when I let it through. Ordinarily
> we put large files on the web and post the link so that people with slow
> internet connections are not bogged down or pay a lot for something they may
> not be interested in. While most people on this list probably have good
> connections many in developing countries still struggle with low bandwidth.
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Frank Shields
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 2:07 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: [Stoves] Can anyone explain this one?
>
>
>
> Greetings all,
>
> Hope the attachment works. Seems too good to be true.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> Frank Shields
>
> Soil Control Lab
>
> 42 Hangar Way
>
> Watsonville, CA 95076
>
> (831) 724-5422
>
> frank at compostlab.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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