[Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
rongretlarson at comcast.net
rongretlarson at comcast.net
Tue Dec 4 23:15:20 CST 2012
Crispin etal
The balls might work OK for the testing scenario.
I was more interested in use by ordinary cooks - as it is not a pleasant task to pick up a hot container. Snuffing from on top using dirt or rock dust seems like it should work. I am in the middle of a lot of discussion of using rock dust fro ag reasons - so using for snuffing seems potentially a happy approach.
Both topics need testing.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: rongretlarson at comcast.net, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: "Frank Shields" <frank at compostlab.com>, "Elisha Moore-Delate" <emdelate at chemonics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 9:47:04 PM
Subject: RE: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Dear Ron
I am sorry to be so brief. Just a matter of time available. I am at a workshop. I owe a few proper responses here and there.
But, I like the idea Frank suggested which is to use small metal balls. These could be washers of some other easily obtained smooth metal parts. They are reusable. The point is to cool the char rapidly to prevent further combustion – nothing more. Getting the temperature below 300 very rapidly and below 100 rapidly is enough.
The quantity of char to be cooled can be roughly estimated and then it can be thrown into a container with the small metal parts and rotated or shaken. The metal is easily and accurately separated (not so easy with sand) and the mass determined. Its properties can be obtained by several methods, one proposed by Frans last night which I like.
I believe this is going to come right very soon. I will circulate both concepts to others not on the list.
Thanks
Crispin
From: rongretlarson at comcast.net [mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 1:57 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Cc: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Frank Shields; Elisha Moore-Delate
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
List and ccs
I haven't seen mentioned today a possible approach that might solve some of the indicated problems for extinguishing a char-making batch stove. This is the same that I mentioned to a smaller group a day or so ago. The idea would be to use a rock dust that one might want anyway for improving the char's soil augmentation properties. Some rock dusts are like biochar - carbon negative (as an oxide, hydroxide, sulfate etc changes with time over to a carbonate).
It would be simple to weigh (maybe just measure the volume of) the rock dust placed on top of the hot char to block air flow. If char is eligible for carbon credits, then the combination should be worth even more (the exact ratio of credits needs work).
A white "quenching" powder might even get additional credits for improving the albedo.
I think we are in agreement that we don't want to use water, nitrogen (costly) or CO2 (costly), but I think dirt (or sand/clay, etc - as suggested by Elisha) is also OK - as long as we weigh the amount used to extinguish. When one needs to measure and characterize the char, then a "vase" technique like Paul Olivier has suggested is probably needed. But smothering a bed of char which something that adds value to the char sounds easier to apply/manipulate than moving the hot char.
I am assisting with a project to collect data on biochar and rock dusts (and even better their use together) in field-performance. I'd love to hear from anyone with such data.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" < crispinpigott at gmail.com >
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" < stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org >
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:14:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Use an aluminum plate!
One problem would be the size of the char and the fact there is unburned torrefied wood inside some char. It won’t crush easily. It is a reason the error on the estimated heat value in the char is large.
Regards
Crispin
From: Stoves [ mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org ] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:09 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Dear Frank
What about 2 steel pie plates? Put char in one and cover with the other.
If char was very hot, to enhance cooling rate, set the bottom plate on a paper towel soaked in water, and spray the top plate with a water mist.
Best wishes,
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Shields
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Paul,
I like the vase. And having a pot of water on top collecting ‘energy’ as the WACW cools seems like a great method of measuring energy loss during the cooling that can be added on to the values determined from a ground and tested WACW. Wonder if that would work - Crispin?
Frank
From: Stoves [ mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org ] On Behalf Of Paul Olivier
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 12:41 PM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Frank,
Getting an accurate dry weight of biochar is indispensable in being able to sell it.
If we douse the biochar with water, then we no longer have an accurate measurement of dry weight.
Also biochar right out of the gasifier contains valuable heat that could be used in keeping food warm.
Therefore I designed a terracotta vase to contain the hot biochar.
A pot placed on top of the vase prevents oxygen from entering.
The vase shown in the drawing below can hold six liters of biochar.
This is the volume of rice hull biochar produced in my 150 gasifier.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Terrecotta%20Vase/Drawing/Terracotta%20Vase.pdf
Thanks.
Paul Olivier
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:20 AM, Frank Shields < frank at compostlab.com > wrote:
Hi Crispin,
Weighing the fuel when removed (hot and burning) and dry weight after
soaking with water, draining (screen) and drying is not a convenient
procedure to determine moisture left -and prone to error - but only method I
can think of at the moment.
Water puts out a fire by taking away its heat. So wondering if there is
another method that could be used? Combination nitrogen gas and pieces of
steel in a tumbler? Must be some way besides water.
Frank
Frank Shields
Control Laboratories, Inc.
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
www.biocharlab.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Stoves [mailto: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org ] On Behalf Of
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:26 AM
To: Stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Dear Frank
You are on the right track, in my view. The assumed energy for the wood and
char is a major source of imprecision in the test.
As for quenching with water: unfortunately we need to know the residual
moisture content of the fuel 'as removed'. That varies a lot depending on
the stove type. Quenching it with nitrogen is an alternative.
Regards
Crispin
-----Original Message-----
From: "Frank Shields" < frank at compostlab.com >
Sender: "Stoves" < stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org >
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:19:39
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'< stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org >
Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
< stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org >
Subject: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
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