[Stoves] Grates and chimneys
Kevin
kchisholm at ca.inter.net
Thu Feb 9 15:55:49 CST 2012
Dear Christa
----- Original Message -----
From: "CHRISTA ROTH" <stoves at foodandfuel.info>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
Xavier, you get the best stove and chimney clogged up quickly if you
use wet wood/fuel.
# Are the Users actually using wet wood, or is this the excuse the Stove
Designer gives for why his stove doesn't work properly for the application?
Was the stove actually designed to burn wet wood? Don't the Users have
enough experience with stoves and chimneys to know that burning wet wood in
a stove that is not designed to burn wet wood will create creosote and tar
deposits in teh chimney?
many users in developing countries collect their
fuel in short-term intervals (daily/weekly) and dont' build up a fuel
stock-pile, so the fuel has little chance to dry.
wet seasons in tropical climates don't help either to get or keep fuel
dry.
# Why not provide a stove system that can actually deal with those
conditions?
if the climate allows, I would rather have a cooking space as open as
possible and not have chimneys.
# If you had a choice between
1: Acceptable Indoor Air Quality.
OR
2: An open cooking space with no chimney,
which would you choose?
I would also try to avoid the introduction of chimneys in cultures,
where there is no word for 'maintenance' in the local vocabulary,
# Do they have words for "Stoves Venting into the Living Space", "Poor
Indoor Air Quality", "Health Hazard", "Premature Death", etc? :-) Clearly,
if the 3 stone fire in the living space is causing health problems, and the
USer wishes to improve on the situation, the User must make changes, like,
getting a better stove system AND learning how to use it properly. An
appropriate training program MUST be included with the hardware that is
supplied to deal with the problem. If the User does not want to learn how to
use the new system properly, then it is destined to fail.
as
the concept then is unlikely to be deeply rooted.
depends where you are
regards christa
# I would suggest that the most important thing is a clear statement of
priorities. There is no such thing as "One Stove Fits All". Stoves must be
designed to suit local circumstances, and the cooking/heating task to be
accomplished.
# Concerning Indoor Air Quality resulting from the use of "Improved Stoves"
that vent the products of combustion into the living space, would you know
of any that meet air quality and safety requirements necessary to be
approved for use inside a home in Germany, Canada or the US? If not, why are
stoves that are unacceptable for use in Germany, Canada, or the US
considered acceptable for use in poorer homes in Under Developed Countries?
Best wishes,
Kevin Chisholm
Am 08.02.2012 um 23:24 schrieb Xavier Brandao:
> Dear Roger,
>
> Sorry for being brusk, I didn't mean to offend anyone! My question was
> rather asked under a naive tone, I wanted to push the debate further. I
> should reformulate it. I wanted to ask people on the list:
> - how long does it take, on average and in the region of operation, for
> your
> chimney stoves or the chimney stoves you know before they clog up?
> - from your experience, what do users do when the stove clogs up? Do they
> contact the manufacturer, or a local chimney sweep?
> - do the manufacturers include regular sweeps along with the stoves
> distribution, to prevent the housewife from getting rid of the chimney +
> stove all at once when it clogs up?
>
> I tend to think that users of rural areas in developing countries which
> are
> not accustomed to chimney stoves do not instinctively think about
> sweeping
> the chimney. But then, if the chimney does clog up only after, say, 5 to
> 6
> years, one could think this is not such a major issue.
>
> Regards,
>
> Xavier
>
> P.S: very nice stove by the way.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
> stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Sent: mercredi 8 février 2012 19:00
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 18, Issue 9
>
> Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Grates and chimneys (Xavier Brandao)
> 2. Re: Grates and chimneys (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 3. Re: Grates (rbtvl at aol.com)
> 4. Re: Grates and chimneys (Carefreeland at aol.com)
> 5. Re: Grates and chimneys (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 6. Re: advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina Faso
> (Anand Karve)
> 7. Re: advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina Faso
> (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 8. Re: Grates and chimneys (Fireside Hearth)
> 9. Re: Grates and chimneys (Otto Formo)
> 10. Re: Grates and chimneys (Ronald Hongsermeier)
> 11. Re: Grates and chimneys (Ronald Hongsermeier)
> 12. Re: Grates and chimneys (Paul S. Anderson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:59:35 +0100
> From: "Xavier Brandao" <xvr.brandao at gmail.com>
> To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
> Message-ID: <4f31acdb.2867b40a.5d74.ffffe200 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> " It is unfortunate that people produce stoves that have chimneys, but
> are
> not actually clean-burning."
> Do we actually have chimney stoves that do not clog up after few
> months/years? Even the cleanest stoves? Is it a good idea to build
> chimney
> stoves at all?
>
> "Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so
> nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron."
> Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make 1
> dollar
> cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin (West
> Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production
> capacities
> of Asia, things will change!
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:14:57 -0500
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina
> Faso
> Message-ID: <015301cce557$70642af0$512c80d0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear AD
>
>
>
> Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people produce
> stoves
> that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point is that
> just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use that
> additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the
> fuel.
> Astonishing really.
>
>
>
> I wonder if there is too much emphasis on 'clean indoor air' without
> enough
> emphasis on 'not needing to worry about clean indoor air' in the first
> place.
>
>
>
> That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove being
> produced
> in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating and
> cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog after
> three
> months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is that?
>
>
>
> A chimney is as good as a fan - especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are
> supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving bad
> combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar is
> exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air outside
> is
> so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. So the
> chimney solved nothing - the problem is the stove.
>
>
>
> Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so
> nice
> to be able to get good parts in cast iron.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:45:12 -0500
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
> Message-ID: <029e01cce60b$aeebf5f0$0cc3e1d0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Xavier
>
> The only place I have seen cast iron available with my own eyes outside
> South Africa was in Kenya, Nakuru actually. That means there must be more
> in
> the region, probably Tanzania too.
>
> In all cases, when you can, use the deformed reinforcing steel bars which
> are available everywhere. They have more carbon and last longer than mild
> steel round bars. You can case-harden them if you have to, in a
> charcoal-filled box.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
> ...Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make 1
> dollar cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in
> Benin
> (West Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production
> capacities of Asia, things will change!
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 02:51:27 +0000
> From: rbtvl at aol.com
> To: "Stoves list" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates
> Message-ID:
>
> <1454248977-1328669486-
> cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2032979070-@
> b13.c14.bise7.blackberry>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> We make long lasting grates in our Maasai project out of 12 and 6 mm
> re-bar.
> Bent and welded.
>
> Bob Lange
> Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone provided by Airtel Tanzania.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> Sender: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:45:12
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
>
> Dear Xavier
>
> The only place I have seen cast iron available with my own eyes outside
> South Africa was in Kenya, Nakuru actually. That means there must be more
> in
> the region, probably Tanzania too.
>
> In all cases, when you can, use the deformed reinforcing steel bars which
> are available everywhere. They have more carbon and last longer than mild
> steel round bars. You can case-harden them if you have to, in a
> charcoal-filled box.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
> ...Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make 1
> dollar cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in
> Benin
> (West Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production
> capacities of Asia, things will change!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:30:24 -0500 (EST)
> From: Carefreeland at aol.com
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
> Message-ID: <37160.2451aa95.3c634650 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> In a message dated 2/7/2012 9:45:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> crispinpigott at gmail.com writes:
>
> DD: Dan Dimiduk comments.
>
> The only place I have seen cast iron available with my own eyes outside
> South Africa was in Kenya, Nakuru actually. That means there must be
> more
> in
> the region, probably Tanzania too.
>
>
>
>
> Build a charcoal cupola and start making crude sand castings. It really
> cannot be that difficult. Iron age men made iron from rock. Modern men
> can
> pour recycled iron from clay into sand molds.
>
> Dan Dimiduk
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:58:35 -0500
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
> Message-ID: <02b101cce61e$51235860$f36a0920$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Dan
>
>
>
> In principle yes, but it is way easier to use some old engine oil, a
> diesel
> injector and a fan. The main reason is control of the temperature. Being
> off
> by 30 degrees can make a big difference, and we are talking about the
> 1540 C
> range. I have seen overheated cast iron blow back out of the mould like a
> volcano. Spectacular, and bright red!
>
>
>
> I visited a guy in Ulaanbaatar who had a 500 kW induction furnace left
> over
> from somewhere and he made all sorts of (low quality) products like cast
> iron fencing and stove tops. He did not own a pyrometer, instead judging
> the
> temperature by eye and experience. The problem was that he was the only
> guy
> in the firm who could do that which means he had to be there for every
> pour,
> day and night. You can imagine how difficult it was to get a consistent
> stove part.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
> PS how's biz?
>
>
>
> Build a charcoal cupola and start making crude sand castings. It really
> cannot be that difficult. Iron age men made iron from rock. Modern men
> can
> pour recycled iron from clay into sand molds.
>
>
>
> Dan Dimiduk
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 13:45:00 +0800
> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina
> Faso
> Message-ID:
> <CACPy7ScfumpxNmYjMk+40wA0wk7g4OWU_w-ttsW10xpsWZVHqA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Dear Crispin,
> the Government of India started in 1984 a programme called National
> Programme on Improved Cookstoves. At that time, the emphasis was on
> saving
> wood through high efficiency. One ensured clean indoor air by providing a
> chimney to the stove. In fact all the stove models approved under this
> programme had a chimney. The world-wide emphasis on cleaner burning of
> the
> fuel came after the year 2000, but by that time, the programme started by
> the Government of India was no longer in existence. The agencies created
> for stove testing and stove approval died a natural death after the end
> of
> this programme. However, there are still some Government programmes, such
> as free housing for the rural poor, clean village programme etc. in which
> it is mandatory to install the so called improved cookstoves in every
> house. But the implementing agencies only install models that were
> approved
> under the National Programme on Improved Cookstoves, and even in the case
> of privately funded stoves programmes, the funding agencies insist
> on certified models (i.e.older models with chimney). The more mordern
> stoves based on the principle of Rocket stove, TLUD stove and fan stove
> get
> neither sponsors nor government's approval. As a result, the modern
> stoves, do not get widely propagated. In the case of a typical rural
> householder, a cleanly burning, modern stove is the last item he would
> spend his money on. He would rather spend it on a mobile phone,
> television
> or a motor cycle.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear AD****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people produce
>> stoves that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point
>> is
>> that just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use
> that
>> additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the
>> fuel.
>> Astonishing really. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I wonder if there is too much emphasis on ?clean indoor air? without
>> enough emphasis on ?not needing to worry about clean indoor air? in the
>> first place. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove being
>> produced in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space
>> heating
>> and cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog
>> after
>> three months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is
>> that?*
>> ***
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> A chimney is as good as a fan ? especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are
>> supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving bad
>> combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar is
>> exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air outside
> is
>> so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. So
>> the
>> chimney solved nothing ? the problem is the stove.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so
>> nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Thanks****
>>
>> Crispin****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Dear Crispin,****
>>
>> the grate costs about a dollar each, whereas a 3.5 m long chimney having
>> a
>> diameter of about 8 cm costs about US$6. Formerly, these chimneys were
> mass
>> produced as water pipes, but nowadays people use plastic pipes for
>> water.
>> There is only one manufacturer in our state who makes the cement
>> chimneys,
>> and about 15% of them are found to be broken on arrival. Fixing the
>> chimneys is a tricky business, because one has to make a hole into the
>> ceiling or the roof of the house. If this hole is not properly sealed,
>> rainwater drips through it. After using it for about 3 months, the
>> chimney
>> generally gets choked with tar, which is very difficult to remove. Once
>> that happens, the stove produces more smoke than the traditional stove
> used
>> to produce, and disgusted, the housewife removes the improved stove
>> along
>> with the chimney. We have recently installed our chimneyless stoves in
>> about 1000 households under a special programme funded by Cummins
>> (India)
>> Ltd. These stoves are now in operation for almost a year and there are
>> no
>> complaints.****
>>
>> Yours****
>>
>> A.D.Karve****
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
> (ARTI)
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 01:18:21 -0500
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina
> Faso
> Message-ID: <02e001cce629$78bb9a30$6a32ce90$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear AD
>
>> .In the case of a typical rural householder, a cleanly burning, modern
> stove is the last item he would spend his money on. He would rather spend
> it
> on a mobile phone, television or a motor cycle.
>
> And for good reason.
>
> Aarrrrghh!
>
> Crispin
>
> PS It's a boy, says Minaxshi!
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:37:30 -0800
> From: Fireside Hearth <firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com>
> To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
> Message-ID: <BLU125-W100AEC095ADAF96B31CF14C37A0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Dear Xavier,
>
> I should be offended, but alas, I will send you a video link
> instead........yes our stove has a chimney!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vkz6gKLayvc
>
> Roger and Bridget Lehet.
>
>> From: xvr.brandao at gmail.com
>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:59:35 +0100
>> Subject: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
>>
>> " It is unfortunate that people produce stoves that have chimneys, but
>> are
>> not actually clean-burning."
>> Do we actually have chimney stoves that do not clog up after few
>> months/years? Even the cleanest stoves? Is it a good idea to build
>> chimney
>> stoves at all?
>>
>> "Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so
>> nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron."
>> Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make 1
> dollar
>> cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin
>> (West
>> Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production
> capacities
>> of Asia, things will change!
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:14:57 -0500
>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina
>> Faso
>> Message-ID: <015301cce557$70642af0$512c80d0$@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Dear AD
>>
>>
>>
>> Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people produce
> stoves
>> that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point is that
>> just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use that
>> additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the
>> fuel.
>> Astonishing really.
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder if there is too much emphasis on 'clean indoor air' without
> enough
>> emphasis on 'not needing to worry about clean indoor air' in the first
>> place.
>>
>>
>>
>> That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove being
> produced
>> in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating and
>> cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog after
> three
>> months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is that?
>>
>>
>>
>> A chimney is as good as a fan - especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are
>> supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving bad
>> combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar is
>> exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air outside
> is
>> so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. So
>> the
>> chimney solved nothing - the problem is the stove.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so
> nice
>> to be able to get good parts in cast iron.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 11:17:21 +0100 (MET)
> From: Otto Formo <formo-o at online.no>
> To: Fireside Hearth <firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com>,
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
> Message-ID:
> <14191266.2112.1328696241959.JavaMail.adm-moff at moffice6.nsc.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Roger and Bridget,
> Nice piece of work!
> Even a tray for the ash, most producers of stoves to day seems to
> "forget"
> that biomass produce ash. (Gasifiers produce little ash)
> I just recall, that you where looking for a stove in combination of
> heating
> and cooking to fit in a boat or a small cabin.
> Have you tried to ignite the biomass from the top?
> By doing so, you will burn out the gases in the biomass, first, and will
> have a very clean and efficient burn, despite a chimney or not.
> Most people seems to forget, that dry fuel (less than 10% moisture) and
> ignition on top of the fuel, is just as important as an "efficient"
> stove.
> Have you tried or considered pellets?
>
> What is your retail price?
> I very much agree that such a stove will be very suitable for outdoor
> activities, as well, like in tipies and small cabins in the high
> mountains.
>
> Have a nice and warm day in Washington.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Otto
> A TLUD ND gasifier fan.............without a fan.......:)
>
>> From: Fireside Hearth [firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com]
>> Sent: 2012-02-08 08:37:30 MET
>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
>>
>>
>> Dear Xavier,
>>
>> I should be offended, but alas, I will send you a video link
> instead........yes our stove has a chimney!
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vkz6gKLayvc
>>
>> Roger and Bridget Lehet.
>>
>>> From: xvr.brandao at gmail.com
>>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:59:35 +0100
>>> Subject: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
>>>
>>> " It is unfortunate that people produce stoves that have chimneys, but
> are
>>> not actually clean-burning."
>>> Do we actually have chimney stoves that do not clog up after few
>>> months/years? Even the cleanest stoves? Is it a good idea to build
> chimney
>>> stoves at all?
>>>
>>> "Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be
>>> so
>>> nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron."
>>> Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make 1
> dollar
>>> cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin
> (West
>>> Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production
> capacities
>>> of Asia, things will change!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:14:57 -0500
>>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina
>>> Faso
>>> Message-ID: <015301cce557$70642af0$512c80d0$@gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Dear AD
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people produce
> stoves
>>> that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point is
>>> that
>>> just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use that
>>> additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the
> fuel.
>>> Astonishing really.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder if there is too much emphasis on 'clean indoor air' without
> enough
>>> emphasis on 'not needing to worry about clean indoor air' in the first
>>> place.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove being
> produced
>>> in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating and
>>> cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog after
> three
>>> months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is that?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A chimney is as good as a fan - especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are
>>> supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving
>>> bad
>>> combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar is
>>> exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air
>>> outside
> is
>>> so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. So
> the
>>> chimney solved nothing - the problem is the stove.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so
> nice
>>> to be able to get good parts in cast iron.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Crispin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>>> site:
>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 11:45:23 +0100 (CET)
> From: "Ronald Hongsermeier" <rwhongser at web.de>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
> Message-ID: <1871364040.992806.1328697923103.JavaMail.fmail at mwmweb074>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 13:55:42 +0100
> From: Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
> Message-ID: <4F3270CE.5060607 at web.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Dear Roger and Bridget,
> There's really no reason to be offended. Your video shows a great deal
> of winsomeness and demonstrates a beautiful little stove. I hope you can
> recognize that it's not really priced for the rural Indian market.
>
> A couple of observations occur to me. First, there seems to be some
> confusion about heat transfer in your presentation. I hope that I
> calculate correctly that the maximum heat output is something around
> 8.8kW. The typical electrical stove-top heating field where I live, will
> on one of the cooking positions have a _significantly_ lower heat output
> than your stove; therefore, it is quite appropriate to turn the stove
> way down in order to cook. That, however, this is true, says something
> about this feature. What it says to me, and I may be quite wrong, but
> throw it into the discussion round as a thoroughly neutral observation
> is the following: Excess air conditions, which may be completely
> appropriate for the primary ignition --> steady state phases of a
> fueling/ignition/burning-cycle, explain why the stove top is not so hot
> for cooking when the air intake is set on max. I think it also at least
> _likely_ that under some conditions the max-air setting may also be
> detrimental to the exhaust air quality. My assumption in stating this is
> that it is likely that the incoming excess air is lowering the temps in
> the secondary burn area of the stove thus making for suboptimal
> completion of gas reactions.
>
> Secondly, since it isn't transparent for me what the heat value of your
> fuel actually is, I can't calculate what the heat output of the stove
> into the room is for the time of 6-10 hours at the low setting. I think
> that value would be quite helpful for someone thinking about purchasing
> such a stove for the intended boat, trailer or portable home (yurt or
> whatever) situation. The respective flue temps would also be helpful for
> such a calculation and consideration.
>
> Thanks for the video.
>
> regards,
> ronald von momentansonnigbayern
>
>
> On 08.02.2012 08:37, Fireside Hearth wrote:
>> Dear Xavier,
>>
>> I should be offended, but alas, I will send you a video link
>> instead........yes our stove has a chimney!
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vkz6gKLayvc
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch? feature=player_detailpage&v=vkz6gKLayvc>
>>
>> Roger and Bridget Lehet.
>>
>>> From: xvr.brandao at gmail.com
>>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:59:35 +0100
>>> Subject: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
>>>
>>> " It is unfortunate that people produce stoves that have chimneys,
>> but are
>>> not actually clean-burning."
>>> Do we actually have chimney stoves that do not clog up after few
>>> months/years? Even the cleanest stoves? Is it a good idea to build
>> chimney
>>> stoves at all?
>>>
>>> "Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so
>>> nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron."
>>> Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make
>> 1 dollar
>>> cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin
>> (West
>>> Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production
>> capacities
>>> of Asia, things will change!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:14:57 -0500
>>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina
>>> Faso
>>> Message-ID: <015301cce557$70642af0$512c80d0$@gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Dear AD
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people
>> produce stoves
>>> that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point is
>>> that
>>> just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use that
>>> additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the
>> fuel.
>>> Astonishing really.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder if there is too much emphasis on 'clean indoor air' without
>> enough
>>> emphasis on 'not needing to worry about clean indoor air' in the first
>>> place.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove being
>> produced
>>> in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating and
>>> cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog
>> after three
>>> months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is that?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A chimney is as good as a fan - especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are
>>> supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving
>>> bad
>>> combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar is
>>> exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air
>> outside is
>>> so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes.
>> So the
>>> chimney solved nothing - the problem is the stove.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be
>> so nice
>>> to be able to get good parts in cast iron.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Crispin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
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>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4794 - Release Date: 02/07/12
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:17:22 -0600
> From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, Otto Formo
> <formo-o at online.no>
> Cc: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
> Message-ID:
> <20120208091722.10692iyefesg5w6c at redbirdmail.illinoisstate.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
> format="flowed"
>
> Dear all,
>
> Stoves simply should not clog their chimneys.
>
> The TLUD gasifier stoves such as what Otto mentioned can have chimneys
> if you want then, and those chimneys remain quite clean.
> Unfortunately we do not yet have TLUDs with chimneys installed
> anywhere long enough to measure how much or how little deposition
> occurs. Factors of fuel types, ambient conditions, diameters,
> heights, etc will need to be included in any final major study.
>
> But my experience with gasifiers shows minimal deposits (light
> dusting, perhaps) in chimneys or passageways of the hot gases. I have
> never cleaned a chimney.
>
> Paul
> --
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor
> Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/giz2011-en-micro-gasification.pdf (Best ref.)
>
>
> Quoting Otto Formo <formo-o at online.no>:
>
>> Dear Roger and Bridget,
>> Nice piece of work!
>> Even a tray for the ash, most producers of stoves to day seems to
>> "forget" that biomass produce ash. (Gasifiers produce little ash)
>> I just recall, that you where looking for a stove in combination of
>> heating and cooking to fit in a boat or a small cabin.
>> Have you tried to ignite the biomass from the top?
>> By doing so, you will burn out the gases in the biomass, first, and
>> will have a very clean and efficient burn, despite a chimney or not.
>> Most people seems to forget, that dry fuel (less than 10% moisture)
>> and ignition on top of the fuel, is just as important as an
>> "efficient" stove.
>> Have you tried or considered pellets?
>>
>> What is your retail price?
>> I very much agree that such a stove will be very suitable for
>> outdoor activities, as well, like in tipies and small cabins in the
>> high mountains.
>>
>> Have a nice and warm day in Washington.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> Otto
>> A TLUD ND gasifier fan.............without a fan.......:)
>>
>>> From: Fireside Hearth [firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com]
>>> Sent: 2012-02-08 08:37:30 MET
>>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Xavier,
>>>
>>> I should be offended, but alas, I will send you a video link
>>> instead........yes our stove has a chimney!
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vkz6gKLayvc
>>>
>>> Roger and Bridget Lehet.
>>>
>>>> From: xvr.brandao at gmail.com
>>>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:59:35 +0100
>>>> Subject: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys
>>>>
>>>> " It is unfortunate that people produce stoves that have chimneys, but
> are
>>>> not actually clean-burning."
>>>> Do we actually have chimney stoves that do not clog up after few
>>>> months/years? Even the cleanest stoves? Is it a good idea to build
> chimney
>>>> stoves at all?
>>>>
>>>> "Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be
> so
>>>> nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron."
>>>> Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could
>>> make 1 dollar
>>>> cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin
> (West
>>>> Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production
>>> capacities
>>>> of Asia, things will change!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:14:57 -0500
>>>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>>>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina
>>>> Faso
>>>> Message-ID: <015301cce557$70642af0$512c80d0$@gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> Dear AD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people
>>> produce stoves
>>>> that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point is
> that
>>>> just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use that
>>>> additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the
> fuel.
>>>> Astonishing really.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if there is too much emphasis on 'clean indoor air'
>>> without enough
>>>> emphasis on 'not needing to worry about clean indoor air' in the first
>>>> place.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove
>>> being produced
>>>> in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating and
>>>> cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog
>>> after three
>>>> months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is that?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A chimney is as good as a fan - especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are
>>>> supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving
> bad
>>>> combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar
>>>> is
>>>> exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air
>>> outside is
>>>> so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. So
> the
>>>> chimney solved nothing - the problem is the stove.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would
>>> be so nice
>>>> to be able to get good parts in cast iron.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Crispin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>
>>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>>>>
>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
>>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Illinois State University RedbirdMail
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
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>
>
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> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 18, Issue 9
> *************************************
>
>
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