[Stoves] interesting link

Sun Jun 24 10:43:27 CDT 2012

Hi Steve,

As you say, folks are entitled to their opinions.

Learning how to help people to use less biomass to cook, breathe less
smoke, is as much a part of the 'world of stoves' as the research,
development, manufacturing of stoves. Carbon credit financing has been a
very helpful part of the picture and hopefully will continue to subsidize
better stoves. In my opinion, the arguing over whether climate change is
caused by humans is a separate topic and is not very well related to the
intentions of this list.

Best,

Dean

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Steven Wilson <swilson61 at hotmail.com>wrote:

>  Hi all,
>
> Of course everyone is entitled to their own view on whether anthropogenic
> climate change is a reality. And if you don't believe it is then certainly
> supporting any carbon offset scheme would be a scandal for your conscience.
> However many of us (including myself) are of the firm view that it is a
> reality. And that being the case I believe carbon offsets can be a
> legitimate and helpful tool if done properly.
>
> I am trying to implement a stove project among the urban poor in
> the slums of India. Our community surveys have indicated that people would
> love the opportunity to cook smoke-free, however on average the survey
> respondents reported only being able to afford Rs 75 ($1.35) for a new
> stove. It's all very well to say "just make good products that people want
> to buy", but decent improved cookstoves are financially well out of the
> reach of many who could benefit from them. Through carbon offsets there is
> however the potential to bring them within reach. So we are looking to sell
> carbon offsets to individuals in the voluntary carbon offset market to fund
> the stoves, thereby making a project in the slums viable.
>
> Sure, some carbon offset schemes may be poorly designed and have negative
> consequences - they need to be prevented. But surely the whole concept
> should not receive the condemnation only some projects deserve.
>
> Regards,
> Steve Wilson
>
>
> > From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 27
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:00:38 -0700
> >
> > Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
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> > than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. interesting link (Ronald Hongsermeier)
> > 2. Re: interesting link (Ron Larson)
> > 3. Re: interesting link (Ronald Hongsermeier)
> > 4. Re: interesting link (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
> > 5. Re: interesting link (Andrew C. Parker)
> > 6. Re: interesting link (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> > 7. Re: interesting link (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:07:37 +0200
> > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: [Stoves] interesting link
> > Message-ID: <4FE58759.2080206 at web.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> >
> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:58:23 -0600
> > From: Ron Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
> > Message-ID: <DDD65262-6712-4F32-A765-0AC2F7F550A8 at comcast.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > Ronald and list:
> >
> > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has
> to stoves?
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:17:21 +0200
> > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
> > Message-ID: <4FE5EC11.1040701 at web.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > Dear Mr. AbovecloudlevelinColorado Larson,
> >
> > Think of it as motivation for coming up with more rational helps to get
> > people into thinking about efficiency in their stove use and sales than
> > carbon credits.
> > :D
> >
> > regards,
> > Ronald von UnterderwolkendeckeninBayern
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 23.06.2012 16:58, Ron Larson wrote:
> > > Ronald and list:
> > >
> > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has
> to stoves?
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Stoves mailing list
> > >>
> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>
> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>
> > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> > >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5087 - Release Date: 06/22/12
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:05:18 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> 1238849211.1464511.1340471118290.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
> >
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Ronald
> >
> > Yours is a worthy goal, but you've picked the wrong cite. ClimateDepot
> is well known as a place which thinks energy efficiency is for wimps. Of
> course they obviously know everything there is to be known about cost
> efficiency.
> >
> > Still hope you can find a reference that mentions stoves.
> >
> > Ron Larson (aka von oberhalbdemSmogaufDenver)
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ronald Hongsermeier" <rwhongser at web.de>
> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:17:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
> >
> > Dear Mr. AbovecloudlevelinColorado Larson,
> >
> > Think of it as motivation for coming up with more rational helps to get
> > people into thinking about efficiency in their stove use and sales than
> > carbon credits.
> > :D
> >
> > regards,
> > Ronald von UnterderwolkendeckeninBayern
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 23.06.2012 16:58, Ron Larson wrote:
> > > Ronald and list:
> > >
> > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has
> to stoves?
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Stoves mailing list
> > >>
> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>
> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>
> > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> > >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5087 - Release Date:
> 06/22/12
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:35:47 -0600
> > From: "Andrew C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com>
> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
> > Message-ID: <op.wgc9txbauoov7l at user-8ezctxe031>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
> > delsp=yes
> >
> > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health
> > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be
> > cleared to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits
> > farce. The people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared
> > and forced into refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of
> > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom?
> >
> > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek
> to
> > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death,
> > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something bad
> > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to 100,000
> > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice?
> >
> > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change.
> >
> >
> > Andrew Parker (not AJH)
> >
> >
> > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for
> > math heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine).
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:46:45 -0400
> > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
> > Message-ID: <011901cd5170$8aef7bb0$a0ce7310$@gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Dear Andrew P
> >
> >
> >
> > I appreciate all three sites you mentioned precisely because of the math!
> >
> >
> >
> > To my surprise there was on the CBC (a relentlessly Warmist channel) an
> > interview today with a lady who was very well informed on the miseries to
> > which the dispossessed poor are victims of the new green-grab, they
> called
> > it, where the carbon cowboys roll into town to 'save the forests' and
> make
> > megabucks in the process.
> >
> >
> >
> > There was a discussion on WUWT of the stoves programmes, mostly GACC,
> > attacking the EPA for touting ridiculous plans. I engaged some of the
> > bloggers pointing out the pretty serious errors in logic (that fuel
> contains
> > 'inherent emissions' of PM and all that nonsense) pointing out the
> > remarkable success achieved in only 1 year in Ulaanbaatar using an open
> > mind, knowledge of good combustion and a real time test protocol (HTP).
> With
> > emissions down more than 99% (which I assume LBLN's Henrick Wallman will
> > talk about in his upcoming webinar) there was a pretty solid rebuttal of
> the
> > knee-jerk comments that stoves are all smoky and messy and need to be
> > replaced by good, clean propane.
> >
> >
> >
> > More to the correct topic: the pillaging of the standing forests is a new
> > type of colonialism where 'green activists' appropriate all local rights
> of
> > use so they can make money selling offsets to the West. What makes it so
> > galling is the defectiveness of the foundational argument - that human
> cause
> > CO2 emissions are dramatically (or even detectably) warming the planet -
> and
> > the bull-headed resistance to the mounting evidence that the educated
> guess
> > taken 25 years ago by Hansen et al was wrong.
> >
> >
> >
> > My advice remains the same: do not put money into a stove programme that
> > depends on carbon trading for survival. Just make good products that
> people
> > want to buy.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Crispin
> >
> >
> >
> > +++++
> >
> >
> >
> > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health
> > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be
> cleared
> > to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits farce.
> The
> > people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared and forced
> into
> > refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of
> >
> > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom?
> >
> >
> >
> > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek to
> > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death,
> > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something bad
> > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to 100,000
> > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice?
> >
> >
> >
> > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Andrew Parker (not AJH)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for
> math
> > heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine).
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120623/833d433f/attachment-0001.html
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:54:29 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Andrew C. Parker"
> > <acparker at xmission.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> 1118696453.1467520.1340477669618.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
> >
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Andrew Parker and list :
> >
> > As in my last reply to Ronald H, I don't see that you are providing
> links that will help lead to better stoves. Lists like the three in your
> "P.S." have zero interest in what this list is about - and in fact I
> believe all three are doing a good job of making sure we are unsuccessful
> in bringing about better stoves.
> >
> > Your motivation (first sentence) for getting into this topic is much
> like many on the list. I started personally with concern about the
> desertification disaster happening in Sudan - all because of charcoal
> production in that country's boondocks. Charcoal-making stoves can help a
> lot with desertification/deforestation, even if the char is used by others
> for cooking - because most present char production is so horrible.
> >
> > But many of us on this list have come to see the char as being better
> for everyone if placed in the ground. Carbon credits will be helpful in
> that regard. If done appropriately, they can also do a lot to prevent (not
> encourage) what you rightfully deplore. The issue for this list should be
> on any/every approach that will give developing country stove users better
> stoves. With charcoal-making stoves, stove users can even make money while
> cooking, while meeting your two concerns: saving forests and gaining better
> health.
> >
> > These topics, which seem important to you, should be on the table at Rio
> + 20 - and I can't see that they are. Because, in part, of the three sites
> listed below in your "P.S."
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Andrew C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com>
> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:35:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
> >
> > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health
> > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be
> > cleared to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits
> > farce. The people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared
> > and forced into refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of
> > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom?
> >
> > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek
> to
> > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death,
> > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something bad
> > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to 100,000
> > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice?
> >
> > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change.
> >
> >
> > Andrew Parker (not AJH)
> >
> >
> > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for
> > math heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine).
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
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> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> >
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> > End of Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 27
> > **************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
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> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
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