[Stoves] interesting link

Sun Jun 24 15:31:47 CDT 2012

I agree with Dean's assessment and position on this issue.

The voluntary carbon market does not depend on governments

Best wishes stovers
David

On 6/24/12, Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> As you say, folks are entitled to their opinions.
>
> Learning how to help people to use less biomass to cook, breathe less
> smoke, is as much a part of the 'world of stoves' as the research,
> development, manufacturing of stoves. Carbon credit financing has been a
> very helpful part of the picture and hopefully will continue to subsidize
> better stoves. In my opinion, the arguing over whether climate change is
> caused by humans is a separate topic and is not very well related to the
> intentions of this list.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Steven Wilson
> <swilson61 at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>>  Hi all,
>>
>> Of course everyone is entitled to their own view on whether anthropogenic
>> climate change is a reality. And if you don't believe it is then
>> certainly
>> supporting any carbon offset scheme would be a scandal for your
>> conscience.
>> However many of us (including myself) are of the firm view that it is a
>> reality. And that being the case I believe carbon offsets can be a
>> legitimate and helpful tool if done properly.
>>
>> I am trying to implement a stove project among the urban poor in
>> the slums of India. Our community surveys have indicated that people
>> would
>> love the opportunity to cook smoke-free, however on average the survey
>> respondents reported only being able to afford Rs 75 ($1.35) for a new
>> stove. It's all very well to say "just make good products that people
>> want
>> to buy", but decent improved cookstoves are financially well out of the
>> reach of many who could benefit from them. Through carbon offsets there
>> is
>> however the potential to bring them within reach. So we are looking to
>> sell
>> carbon offsets to individuals in the voluntary carbon offset market to
>> fund
>> the stoves, thereby making a project in the slums viable.
>>
>> Sure, some carbon offset schemes may be poorly designed and have negative
>> consequences - they need to be prevented. But surely the whole concept
>> should not receive the condemnation only some projects deserve.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Steve Wilson
>>
>>
>> > From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 27
>> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:00:38 -0700
>> >
>> > Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
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>> >
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>> >
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>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. interesting link (Ronald Hongsermeier)
>> > 2. Re: interesting link (Ron Larson)
>> > 3. Re: interesting link (Ronald Hongsermeier)
>> > 4. Re: interesting link (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
>> > 5. Re: interesting link (Andrew C. Parker)
>> > 6. Re: interesting link (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>> > 7. Re: interesting link (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:07:37 +0200
>> > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Subject: [Stoves] interesting link
>> > Message-ID: <4FE58759.2080206 at web.de>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:58:23 -0600
>> > From: Ron Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
>> > Message-ID: <DDD65262-6712-4F32-A765-0AC2F7F550A8 at comcast.net>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> >
>> > Ronald and list:
>> >
>> > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has
>> to stoves?
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Stoves mailing list
>> > >
>> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >
>> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> > >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >
>> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> > > site:
>> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:17:21 +0200
>> > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
>> > Message-ID: <4FE5EC11.1040701 at web.de>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> >
>> > Dear Mr. AbovecloudlevelinColorado Larson,
>> >
>> > Think of it as motivation for coming up with more rational helps to get
>> > people into thinking about efficiency in their stove use and sales than
>> > carbon credits.
>> > :D
>> >
>> > regards,
>> > Ronald von UnterderwolkendeckeninBayern
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 23.06.2012 16:58, Ron Larson wrote:
>> > > Ronald and list:
>> > >
>> > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it
>> > > has
>> to stoves?
>> > >
>> > > Ron
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >>
>> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Stoves mailing list
>> > >>
>> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >>
>> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> > >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >>
>> > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> > >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>> > >>
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Stoves mailing list
>> > >
>> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >
>> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> > >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >
>> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> > > site:
>> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----
>> > > No virus found in this message.
>> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5087 - Release Date:
>> > > 06/22/12
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 4
>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:05:18 +0000 (UTC)
>> > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <
>> 1238849211.1464511.1340471118290.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
>> >
>> >
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Ronald
>> >
>> > Yours is a worthy goal, but you've picked the wrong cite. ClimateDepot
>> is well known as a place which thinks energy efficiency is for wimps. Of
>> course they obviously know everything there is to be known about cost
>> efficiency.
>> >
>> > Still hope you can find a reference that mentions stoves.
>> >
>> > Ron Larson (aka von oberhalbdemSmogaufDenver)
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Ronald Hongsermeier" <rwhongser at web.de>
>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:17:21 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
>> >
>> > Dear Mr. AbovecloudlevelinColorado Larson,
>> >
>> > Think of it as motivation for coming up with more rational helps to get
>> > people into thinking about efficiency in their stove use and sales than
>> > carbon credits.
>> > :D
>> >
>> > regards,
>> > Ronald von UnterderwolkendeckeninBayern
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 23.06.2012 16:58, Ron Larson wrote:
>> > > Ronald and list:
>> > >
>> > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it
>> > > has
>> to stoves?
>> > >
>> > > Ron
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >>
>> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Stoves mailing list
>> > >>
>> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >>
>> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> > >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >>
>> > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> > >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>> > >>
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Stoves mailing list
>> > >
>> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >
>> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> > >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >
>> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----
>> > > No virus found in this message.
>> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5087 - Release Date:
>> 06/22/12
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120623/ec40c03d/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 5
>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:35:47 -0600
>> > From: "Andrew C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com>
>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
>> > Message-ID: <op.wgc9txbauoov7l at user-8ezctxe031>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
>> > delsp=yes
>> >
>> > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health
>> > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be
>> > cleared to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits
>> > farce. The people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared
>> > and forced into refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of
>> > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom?
>> >
>> > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek
>> to
>> > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death,
>> > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something
>> > bad
>> > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to
>> > 100,000
>> > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice?
>> >
>> > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change.
>> >
>> >
>> > Andrew Parker (not AJH)
>> >
>> >
>> > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for
>> > math heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 6
>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:46:45 -0400
>> > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>> > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
>> > Message-ID: <011901cd5170$8aef7bb0$a0ce7310$@gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >
>> > Dear Andrew P
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I appreciate all three sites you mentioned precisely because of the
>> > math!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To my surprise there was on the CBC (a relentlessly Warmist channel) an
>> > interview today with a lady who was very well informed on the miseries
>> > to
>> > which the dispossessed poor are victims of the new green-grab, they
>> called
>> > it, where the carbon cowboys roll into town to 'save the forests' and
>> make
>> > megabucks in the process.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > There was a discussion on WUWT of the stoves programmes, mostly GACC,
>> > attacking the EPA for touting ridiculous plans. I engaged some of the
>> > bloggers pointing out the pretty serious errors in logic (that fuel
>> contains
>> > 'inherent emissions' of PM and all that nonsense) pointing out the
>> > remarkable success achieved in only 1 year in Ulaanbaatar using an open
>> > mind, knowledge of good combustion and a real time test protocol (HTP).
>> With
>> > emissions down more than 99% (which I assume LBLN's Henrick Wallman
>> > will
>> > talk about in his upcoming webinar) there was a pretty solid rebuttal
>> > of
>> the
>> > knee-jerk comments that stoves are all smoky and messy and need to be
>> > replaced by good, clean propane.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > More to the correct topic: the pillaging of the standing forests is a
>> > new
>> > type of colonialism where 'green activists' appropriate all local
>> > rights
>> of
>> > use so they can make money selling offsets to the West. What makes it
>> > so
>> > galling is the defectiveness of the foundational argument - that human
>> cause
>> > CO2 emissions are dramatically (or even detectably) warming the planet
>> > -
>> and
>> > the bull-headed resistance to the mounting evidence that the educated
>> guess
>> > taken 25 years ago by Hansen et al was wrong.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > My advice remains the same: do not put money into a stove programme
>> > that
>> > depends on carbon trading for survival. Just make good products that
>> people
>> > want to buy.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Crispin
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > +++++
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health
>> > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be
>> cleared
>> > to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits farce.
>> The
>> > people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared and forced
>> into
>> > refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of
>> >
>> > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek
>> > to
>> > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death,
>> > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something
>> > bad
>> > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to
>> > 100,000
>> > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Andrew Parker (not AJH)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for
>> math
>> > heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine).
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120623/833d433f/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 7
>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:54:29 +0000 (UTC)
>> > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Andrew C. Parker"
>> > <acparker at xmission.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <
>> 1118696453.1467520.1340477669618.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
>> >
>> >
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Andrew Parker and list :
>> >
>> > As in my last reply to Ronald H, I don't see that you are providing
>> links that will help lead to better stoves. Lists like the three in your
>> "P.S." have zero interest in what this list is about - and in fact I
>> believe all three are doing a good job of making sure we are unsuccessful
>> in bringing about better stoves.
>> >
>> > Your motivation (first sentence) for getting into this topic is much
>> like many on the list. I started personally with concern about the
>> desertification disaster happening in Sudan - all because of charcoal
>> production in that country's boondocks. Charcoal-making stoves can help a
>> lot with desertification/deforestation, even if the char is used by
>> others
>> for cooking - because most present char production is so horrible.
>> >
>> > But many of us on this list have come to see the char as being better
>> for everyone if placed in the ground. Carbon credits will be helpful in
>> that regard. If done appropriately, they can also do a lot to prevent
>> (not
>> encourage) what you rightfully deplore. The issue for this list should be
>> on any/every approach that will give developing country stove users
>> better
>> stoves. With charcoal-making stoves, stove users can even make money
>> while
>> cooking, while meeting your two concerns: saving forests and gaining
>> better
>> health.
>> >
>> > These topics, which seem important to you, should be on the table at
>> > Rio
>> + 20 - and I can't see that they are. Because, in part, of the three
>> sites
>> listed below in your "P.S."
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Andrew C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com>
>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:35:47 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
>> >
>> > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health
>> > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be
>> > cleared to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits
>> > farce. The people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared
>> > and forced into refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of
>> > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom?
>> >
>> > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek
>> to
>> > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death,
>> > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something
>> > bad
>> > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to
>> > 100,000
>> > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice?
>> >
>> > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change.
>> >
>> >
>> > Andrew Parker (not AJH)
>> >
>> >
>> > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for
>> > math heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine).
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120623/217b4674/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> > End of Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 27
>> > **************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
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>>
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>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

David Whitfield V.
Executive Director
CEDESOL Foundation