[Stoves] Pellet machines was Re: Fabricated Burn Barrel TLUDS
Tom Miles
tmiles at trmiles.com
Mon Oct 1 09:35:56 CDT 2012
Rolf,
Your contributions to the list and to the challenges have been much appreciated over the years. It is important for the list to understand the range of prices and capacity of the machines. Good quality is not cheap but it looks like you have made a good effort.
Many thanks
Tom
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Energies Naturals C.B.
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 1:56 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pellet machines was Re: Fabricated Burn Barrel TLUDS
Hallo,
Paul asked me these questions and I answered him the following on his private side.
It is not my intention to do bizz on the list!
Rolf
Hallo Paul,
the manufacturer is very strict about prices:
There is only one price for all and one retail % for all dealers.
The pm 22 costs € 9.000,- ex worx, the PM 44 € 20.000,- e.w. and the PM 75 € 46.000,-
Please don´ t get me wrong, I didn´t intend to make sales on the forum´ s back.
I came to Ecoworxx because I saw what they build and that it suits perfectly my needs.
The partnership whith them came later. It is for Spain only.
But I believe that many on the list shall find these compact machines extremely versatile and usefull.
As for the technical questions, Paul:
There are many and bigger pelleting chains on the market. Most use hammer mills to grind the
biomass down, which is utterly wasteful, here you can separate the grinding from pelletizing.
But then you need more hoppers,conveyors and space.
These machines were designed for people who look for an integrated device which not only saves space
(1 m² for the biggest unit, less for the smaller) but also energy.
They use individual freq.drives for every motor, thus you can adjust the speed of each motor (rasping drum, mixer, feeder screw, pellet press )individually so as to adjust it to the different input mats by means of a turn on the poti.
It is this concept which makes the PM range so versatile.
Of course you are free to mix different feedstock into the hopper, e.g. add some sawdust to straw (chaff) and it will vastly improve the pellet quality.
The inbuilt water pump can handle lime water to dose some lime to high chlorine mats which makes the pellets less prone to ash melting...
Carpenters, woodworkers, smallholders, you name it- everyone who has ligno-cellulosic waste material of different shapes just drops them into the hopper and watches the pellets come out below. It is that easy!
Corn cobs are just fine,want to mix it with waste paper/cardboard? O.k. no problem.
Garden waste? Shrubs? Bad wood chips with too many fines and escapes? Yes please!
I was very impressed by the 20 mm pellets made out of sander dust, hard like a rock !
What works also great is the fibrous residus of anaerobic fermenters. In the 25mm shape they look just like dog "pellets" but they are quite solid.
The max humidity is between 20 and 25 %, depending on the material.
More questions welcome
Rolf
Am 30.09.2012 15:55, schrieb Paul Anderson: Rolf,
Yes, we would like to know the prices. This Listserv is not for commercial purposes, but you can certainly inform us of the prices here because so many people want to know. And not all want the USA prices. Basic price where manufactured. And I want to know about getting units in eastern Africa (specifically Uganda).
Question: Wouldn't it make more sense to have the chopping/shreading/grinding to be done separately from the machine that does the pelletizing? That would allow the user to make appropriate mixtures for the pellets.
So I ask: Can you make and sell the pelletizer unit separately? Prices please.
I like the ability to have different diameters of pellets!!!
Finally, where can we see independent reviewer comments about your machines? And comparative info with other pelletizers?
Am 01.10.2012 08:52, schrieb Tom Miles Easystreet:
Price?
T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.
tmiles at trmiles.com
Sent from mobile.
On Sep 30, 2012, at 11:40 PM, "Energies Naturals C.B." <energiesnaturals at gmx.de> wrote:
Hallo Christa,
thanks for your interesting comments.
The PM 3.0 was an early prototype, manufactured in + 300 units most of which are still in use.
It gad a vertical axis design and only one motor which drives both the rasping shaft and plate and the koller/die below.
The problem was that it needed often "help" to draw in some kind of voluminous feedstock.
The new machines are very different and have solved many problems learnt from the previous.
Also, there are three versions, all of them more productive than the first.
The principle and the high quality is still the same.
Rolf
Am 01.10.2012 00:57, schrieb CHRISTA ROTH:
Paul, you should have just asked me for info. The Pelletmaker 3.0 from Ecoworxx is the one that I have, it was the only one available from Ecoworxx in 2010. It is featured in the GIZ-HERA manual microgasification http://www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/giz2011-en-micro-gasification.pdf, see photos and link to their website on page 90. that unit is now doing work in Malawi, though not for fuel processing. but for waste management. In 2010 I paid less than 5,000 Euro for the machine, including a 6 mm and an extra 20-mm die (which is 60 mm thick!). I don't know current pricing.
there is another unit in Senegal making Typha-grass-pellets. both machines were airfreighted to Africa, increasing the cost, but speeding up the process (220kg). The challenge to get it to Malawi was that the pallet where the machine is mounted for transport could not go upright as they only have small cargo planes flying into the country, so they had to make a special double pallet and lay the machine flat on the side for the transport. it still worked. and Ecoworxx handled it all.
For a trial machine to prove a concept it is actually ideal to have the shredder and the pelletiser in one machine. it is probably not so appropriate to go on a commercial scale, there it makes sense to have the two steps separated, depending on your setting. Ecoworxx has since developed larger capacity products.
but if you are not sure that you will actually succeed and have a market case for pellets in a certain area, that small machine, that was developed for the German home-owner for private use is the best you can get. Added advantage is that you only need 3 KvA, but tri-phase power. But it can do maximum 50 kg per hour, depending on the material.
and because it is a flat-die machine, it is easy to exchange the dies to work with different diameters. I have 6, 14 and 20 mm dies, depending on material and what you want to use it for.
the dies are good quality, but also wear out with time. The deterioration rate depends again on the material that you put through, but the dies last far longer than the chinese versions that you can get relatively cheaply on the market.
Yet if you want to go to scale, there are ring-die machines for larger volumes made in Africa, see again the manual, next page with photo and reference to website.
hope that answers most of the questions.
Christa
Am 30.09.2012 um 15:55 schrieb Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:
Rolf,
Yes, we would like to know the prices. This Listserv is not for commercial purposes, but you can certainly inform us of the prices here because so many people want to know. And not all want the USA prices. Basic price where manufactured. And I want to know about getting units in eastern Africa (specifically Uganda).
Question: Wouldn't it make more sense to have the chopping/shreading/grinding to be done separately from the machine that does the pelletizing? That would allow the user to make appropriate mixtures for the pellets.
So I ask: Can you make and sell the pelletizer unit separately? Prices please.
I like the ability to have different diameters of pellets!!!
Finally, where can we see independent reviewer comments about your machines? And comparative info with other pelletizers?
As we (generic we because there are several efforts) advance with TLUD stoves in eastern Africa, there could be considerable market for appropriately priced and reliable pelletizing equipment. Small units are fine. Labor costs are so low, so it is vastly different from the USA and Europe situations. Do you have any representation in Africa?
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
On 9/30/2012 4:35 AM, Energies Naturals C.B. wrote:
Hallo Paul, Ron and others,
uniformizing low density fuels and uneven size fuels has always been a problem.
I found a good solution in the Ecoworxx all-in one pelletizer.
This is a unique device which has a big hopper on top and a rasping drum underneath it.
It will reduce virtually any feedstock less than 12 cm diam to particles between 1 and 6 mm.
These fall into a mixing chamber below where the moisture content is measured and -if too dry- water is added by an automatic pump.
A second moisture sensor at the entrance to the dosifying screw regulates the addition of water.
The ground biomass is fed into the flat die press underneath and leaves it as prime grade pellets.
You can change the die in 10 minutes and have the choice to produce 6 -8 -12- 16 -20 -and 25 mm pellets on the same machine!
It doesn´t come from China, though because despite the price advantage, all the units I saw never met the quality standard for trouble free use. And you cannot move away from them because they have to be fed continuously.
Our machine is entirely designed and manufactured in Germany, meets the CE requirements and really works!
If you are interested, come to the Expobioenergia fair in Valladolid/Spain on 23-25.Oct. this year where we shall expose two working units.
We just pelletized whole canes of Arundo Donax in one go into wonderfull hard 6 mm fuel pellets!
Many more samples have been tested successfully. We would be happy to test yours!
No time to visit the fair?
Check www.ecoworxx.de <http://www.ecoworxx.de/> and if you call or write in my name they will know your problem !
Rolf Uhle
Energies Naturals C.B.
(sober again, Ron?)
Am 30.09.2012 05:39, schrieb Paul Olivier:
Ron,
You bring up a very good point here. If the biomass is uniform, granular and dry, it becomes very easy to process in a TLUD. That is why it is so appealing to work with biomass that is already uniform, granular and dry, such as rice hulls and coffee husks.
But if we have biomass that is not uniform, granular and dry (such as straw, pine needles or sawdust), then we might think about drying and pelletizing it. In this way we have a top-quality gasifier fuel. This allows us to take full advantage of both the biochar and gas. In the case of rice hulls and coffee husks, the gas has a much greater commercial value than the biochar. In making biochar it is such a pity to waste the gas.
Also when we pelletize biomass, the bulk density can reach as high as 600 kgs/m3. This means that if we use a gasifier for purposes of household cooking, the height of the reactor has to be only a fraction of the height of a reactor utilizing undensified biomass such as rice hulls (of a bulk density of less than 100 kgs/m3). If we do not change the height of the reactor, then cooking times per batch can last three or four hours. When we have thousands of households and small business using gasifiers, then we do not have to think about making biochar as an independent activity.
I really like small pellets of a diameter of about 6 mm. Of course there is the cost of buying a pellet machine. But they are quite cheap out of China. And there is the cost of electricity or fuel to make the pellets. But this cost is easily offset by the value of the syngas produced. Even in a poor country such as Vietnam, it is easy to buy pellets in local markets.
Thanks.
Paul
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de> wrote:
Dear Alex,
I haven't carefully read the whole thread but haven't seen granularity of fuel addressed. Isn't that what makes a lot of difference in the flame/gas quality ( along with the moisture content, of course ) and determines the necessity of either using or not using forced air? Regarding Dr. Karve's drums I'm wondering how careful everyone is in emphasizing fuel moisture and particularity/uniformity issues in using these tools.
I think my first sentence above applies to both DD (Imberts or others) and TLUD's.
regards,
Ronald von der Oktoberfestnähe
(mein heutiger Name wird nur dann getragen bei einer Bierleichensichtungsrate von > 1 / Tag ;-) )
On 29.09.2012 20:55, Alex English wrote:
Tom,
I guess it may depend on what you consider a clean burn. My experiments focused the gases through a smaller out let pipe and then added the secondary air. So for a two foot diameter drum the pipe was three inches in diameter. Air was introduced near the top having only half that distance to penetrate, and combustion occurred in a six inch diameter chimney , six feet tall above.
Combustion was measurably good to very good nineteen times out of twenty.
So, what indeed is the limit?
Alex
On 2012-09-29 11:47 AM, "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com> wrote:
AD, Paul, Kobus and others. Many thanks for the suggestions.
What is the largest practical size (kg fuel/hr, kW) for a single TLUD with a clean stack for heat recovery? There must be a limit to the air penetration to get a clean gas burn form a natural draft stack or even a fan driven TLUD.
Tom
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Anand Karve
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 11:22 PM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fabricated Burn Barrel TLUDS
Dear Tom,
we regularly supply charring kilns made out of used 55 gallon drums. The kilns are based on the TLUD principle. The cost of a kiln plus an extra barrel for storing the char, is about US$100. We have sold more than 100 such kilns in India and have also trained a number of persons from India and Africa. These kilns are so easy to manufacture, that we ask the trainees to photograph and take measurements of our kiln so that they can copy the design. In many instances, people buy a kiln from us, because they feel that their local fabricator would be better able to copy the design from an actual object than from a blue print or a photograph.
The advantage of using 55 gallon drums is that used drums are available at a relatively low cost, and the kilns are portable. Instead of transporting the biomass, one transports the kiln to the location where the biomass is available, and brings back only the charred material, which weighs only a third as much as the biomass.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com> wrote:
Am often asked if there is a burn barrel sized TLUD that is commercially fabricated. We’ve seen some great DIY with Doug’s Jolly Roger and others. Is anyone fabricating a 55 gal drum sized TLUD that can be used for regular biochar production? If so, what is the cost and availability?
Thanks
Tom Miles
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